zlacker

[parent] [thread] 38 comments
1. ble+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-02-01 19:10:51
My understanding of the state of the art of inter-satellite optical links is that they have only been used between satellites that are basically in the same orbital plane and in more or less the same orbit. That is, the angle from one satellite to the other changes very very slowly, so that the optics don't have to do much tracking -- and consequently satellites can only form an optical link with other satellites that are ahead or behind themselves in ~ the same orbit.

Cross-plane optical links would have a trickier tracking problem.

While there's no explicit mention of same-plane vs cross-plane optical links, I assume that the first time people have a public cross-plane optical link, they will make a big deal out of it. :)

The article also mentions that SpaceX would need to do further study before using laser links between satellites and ground stations-- this kind of optical link would require both more angular tracking and probably atmospheric correction as well.

replies(7): >>sandwo+n1 >>ortusd+a2 >>Symmet+d6 >>sepham+Bl >>_0ffh+jS >>calrai+QZ >>london+x01
2. sandwo+n1[view] [source] 2024-02-01 19:17:03
>>ble+(OP)
Tracking is an issue, but doppler can also be a thing. At orbital speed (actually up to 2x orbital speeds) the doppler effect between two satellites can change the frequency enough to cause interference. Moving a scope to track a moving target is one problem, allowing the algorithms to adapt at the frequency shifts on the fly another.
replies(3): >>Scound+e6 >>ble+5J >>dreamc+ak1
3. ortusd+a2[view] [source] 2024-02-01 19:20:29
>>ble+(OP)
> “Another really fun fact is that we held a link all the way down to 122 kilometers while we were de-orbiting a satellite,” he said. “And we were able to downstream the video.”

> For the future, SpaceX plans on expanding its laser system so that it can be ported and installed on third-party satellites. The company has also explored beaming the satellite lasers directly to terminals on the Earth’s surface to deliver data.

replies(1): >>FpUser+AW
4. Symmet+d6[view] [source] 2024-02-01 19:39:22
>>ble+(OP)
Right. The Iridium network had communication between satellites in different orbital planes passing each other but that was a pretty unusual capability.
replies(2): >>Scound+N8 >>akira2+ja
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5. Scound+e6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 19:39:25
>>sandwo+n1
Indeed Iridium had to deal with the same thing (or I guess, didn’t):

“ Cross-seam inter-satellite link hand-offs would have to happen very rapidly and cope with large Doppler shifts; therefore, Iridium supports inter-satellite links only between satellites orbiting in the same direction.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridium_satellite_constellat...

replies(2): >>moffka+gu >>amloza+Ov
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6. Scound+N8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 19:51:34
>>Symmet+d6
I wonder how iridium actually handles the tracking (or if it’s just slow enough and lack of attenuation in free space just lets them blast it).

And if they have zones where they don’t go to adjacent orbits, but instead go up or down within their orbit for the handover between orbits.

replies(1): >>lxgr+qH
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7. akira2+ja[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 19:58:14
>>Symmet+d6
They do have counter rotating planes though, so there are places where two satellite tracks next to each other moving in opposite directions, and these pairs of satellites cannot use the cross plane communication mode.

Additionally, their inter satellite links use regular Ka band radio.

8. sepham+Bl[view] [source] 2024-02-01 20:46:32
>>ble+(OP)
Take a look at the slides from the presentation, I think the geometry clearly shows cross-plane links in the mesh. Having worked on these types of systems, I've had more difficulty with the lookahead angles (rx from where the target was, tx to where it will be due to speed of light) than the tracking -- fine tracking performance was required for all modes, and it largely became a GNC and acquisition time issue (since they're ephemeral) for the cross-plane links.
replies(3): >>stcred+Bm >>ble+MI >>nomel+AL
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9. stcred+Bm[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 20:50:59
>>sepham+Bl
GNC?
replies(2): >>Rebelg+Gn >>nightp+Pn
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10. Rebelg+Gn[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 20:55:00
>>stcred+Bm
Guidance navigation and/or control
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11. nightp+Pn[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 20:55:27
>>stcred+Bm
Guidance, navigation and control
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12. moffka+gu[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 21:31:53
>>Scound+e6
Don't all satellites orbit in the same direction? Launching retrograde is just throwing away free velocity.
replies(2): >>nightp+ew >>amloza+ix
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13. amloza+Ov[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 21:39:52
>>Scound+e6
There were some experiments with communicating over Iridium to small cube-like sats back in the day, but we couldn't make the system on a chip beefy enough to do the Doppler shift calculations on the fly and survive a launch; it was close though. I think its possible to do now.
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14. nightp+ew[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 21:42:26
>>moffka+gu
In the context of the full article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridium_satellite_constellatio...), it's clear they're talking about the polar orbits used by the Iridium constellation, which have "seams" around the Atlantic and the Pacific as the "first" set of satellites passing north-to-south overlap with the "last" set of satellites coming back south-to-north on the other side of their orbits. So of the 6 orbital planes used by the Iridium satellites, each plane covers 1/12th of the globe for each "half" of its over-the-poles orbit. So there are two "seams" where handoff is not supported, one off the eastern seaboard and one roughly over Japan.

There's an animation on linked article that explains this pretty well: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Ir...

replies(1): >>moffka+2x
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15. moffka+2x[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 21:47:13
>>nightp+ew
Ah I didn't realize they have all of their stats in polar orbits, that's interesting. Starlink is mostly equatorial afaik, the higher latitudes aren't very well covered.
replies(1): >>lxgr+pG
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16. amloza+ix[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 21:48:05
>>moffka+gu
The Iridium satellites are in what you might call "parallel" orbits, if you stretch the meaning of the word a little bit.

The wikipedia link above explains it well:

""" Orbital velocity of the satellites is approximately 27,000 km/h (17,000 mph). Satellites communicate with neighboring satellites via Ka band inter-satellite links. Each satellite can have four inter-satellite links: one each to neighbors fore and aft in the same orbital plane, and one each to satellites in neighboring planes to either side. The satellites orbit from pole to same pole with an orbital period of roughly 100 minutes.[8] This design means that there is excellent satellite visibility and service coverage especially at the North and South poles. The over-the-pole orbital design produces "seams" where satellites in counter-rotating planes next to one another are traveling in opposite directions. Cross-seam inter-satellite link hand-offs would have to happen very rapidly and cope with large Doppler shifts; therefore, Iridium supports inter-satellite links only between satellites orbiting in the same direction. """

The 'seams' have interesting implications for latency when I was working on Global Data Broadcast.

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17. lxgr+pG[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 22:41:42
>>moffka+2x
Most of Starlink's orbits have an inclination of 53 degrees, which I wouldn't really call equatorial anymore.
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18. lxgr+qH[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 22:45:50
>>Scound+N8
Supposedly they use steering, since the horizontal azimuth to adjacent-plane satellites varies from 0 to 65 degrees across an orbit: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA348174.pdf
replies(1): >>Scound+hQ
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19. ble+MI[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 22:51:58
>>sepham+Bl
The "routing in the mesh" slide? Definitely given where the satellites are in that picture some of the links would have to be cross-plane, it's just the whole thing looked so messy (even with it being geo-referenced on a globe) that I didn't know whether to consider it a "real routing example" vs a "notional routing example that we overlaid on the globe".

Sounds very cool that cross-plane links are doable, even if they have predictable complications compared to in-plane.

I would have thought that someone would make a big deal (have a press release, e.g.) out of successfully establishing cross-plane links, but maybe it just doesn't seem that impressive to people who already have good enough precise predictive ephemerides or satellite states to make those links in the first place.

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20. ble+5J[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 22:53:09
>>sandwo+n1
Links between satellites closing range near 2x orbital speed have two problems: - bigger doppler - the lifetime of the link is much shorter
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21. nomel+AL[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 23:08:13
>>sepham+Bl
In general, how is the initial alignment performed?

Is there rough pointing, followed by some rastering, until the sensor gets a hit? Maybe with some slight beam widening first? My assumption is that you would want exactly one laser, one sensor module, and probably a fixed lens on each? Is the sensor something like a 2x2 array, or pie with three pieces, to allow alignment? Or is it one big sensor that uses perturb and observe type approach to find the middle?

Also, is there anything special about the wavelengths selected? Are the lasers fit to one of the Fraunhofer lines? 760nm seems like a good choice?

replies(3): >>barbeg+bP >>sepham+KP >>london+xZ
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22. barbeg+bP[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 23:33:27
>>nomel+AL
There's an interesting paper on the subject of alignment here. https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4...
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23. sepham+KP[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 23:37:23
>>nomel+AL
Alas there is no 'in general'. Acquisition is often the secret sauce due to, among other challenges, the extremely tight alignment requirement -- thermal shifts, satellite wobbling, etc, are all critical to manage.

On wavelengths, if you're trying to hit 100gbit+, you're probably having to use coherent optics, and there aren't many technology options or wavelengths on the market.

replies(1): >>_0ffh+JE2
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24. Scound+hQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 23:41:25
>>lxgr+qH
It doesn’t get into it too much on pages 14 and 15, but it indeed suggests that they probably exclusively use the “intra-orbital” links closer to the poles to get data to a satellite where the inter-orbital links are more practical.

I believe Iridium had way more downlinks than they used to pre-bankruptcy. I guess volume constraints were less of an issue, so ok to hop around more in space.

replies(1): >>lxgr+ta1
25. _0ffh+jS[view] [source] 2024-02-01 23:57:16
>>ble+(OP)
Nah, I once did a job for a guy and they did LEO-GEO distances alright iirc and LEO-Earth in the mid-end 2000s, which has to deal with some pretty high angular velocities, if not as potentially high as LEO-LEO when they don't happen to be relatively nicely aligned. (In case that sounds strange, the guy was one of the two owners of a small, very specialized company that in turn was subcontracted by a rather bigger company. These laser terminals were quite the beasts and not really cheap.)
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26. FpUser+AW[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-02 00:37:13
>>ortusd+a2
So what happens to the laser beam when there are clouds?
replies(5): >>hrkfmu+WW >>odysse+i01 >>cayman+a11 >>indole+B61 >>Tuna-F+aS1
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27. hrkfmu+WW[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-02 00:40:56
>>FpUser+AW
maybe it could route around the clouds via some other satellites
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28. london+xZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-02 01:05:27
>>nomel+AL
A laser that transmits data at 100Gbps can also transmit at 1 bit per second with an additional path loss of 110 decibels.

You'd normally achieve this by transmitting a well-known pseudorandom sequence. You also need clock stability into the ppb range.

A path loss of 110 decibels is huge. It can easily account for your lenses being hugely off axis.

replies(1): >>sneak+k01
29. calrai+QZ[view] [source] 2024-02-02 01:08:44
>>ble+(OP)
I'll assume there is a lot of double/triple (or higher) accounting going on here as data is sent through multiple relay hops to get the intended target.
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30. odysse+i01[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-02 01:13:02
>>FpUser+AW
Interesting parallel to solar panels.
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31. sneak+k01[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-02 01:13:08
>>london+xZ
What books or webpages do I read to learn how to understand the why of your first sentence?
replies(1): >>london+q11
32. london+x01[view] [source] 2024-02-02 01:14:37
>>ble+(OP)
With 266,000 acquisitions per day, I suggest they are regularly doing links across orbital planes.

If they could only do in-plane links, they would have barely any acquisitions per day, because most links would stay up for long periods of time.

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33. cayman+a11[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-02 01:20:10
>>FpUser+AW
The lasers aren't used for ground-to-satellite comms. While they refer to some of them maintaining a link through the atmosphere, the lasers are intended for satellite-to-satellite communication way above the atmosphere.
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34. london+q11[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-02 01:23:08
>>sneak+k01
This is from the Shannon-Hartley theorem, the 'power limited case':

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon%E2%80%93Hartley_theore...

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35. indole+B61[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-02 02:15:07
>>FpUser+AW
It would fall back to radio and/or other connections. The laser connection would probably be sold at a discount rate due to the variable level of service.
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36. lxgr+ta1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-02 02:46:17
>>Scound+hQ
This has more details: https://fcc.report/IBFS/SAT-MOD-20131227-00148/1031348.pdf

Apparently it only happens above/below 68 degrees latitude, so the next satellite with a working inter-orbital-plane connection is at most one hop ahead or behind.

https://spaceflight101.com/spacecraft/iridium-next/ has some more photos and diagrams; seems like they're really mechanically steered even on the NEXT constellation.

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37. dreamc+ak1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-02 04:18:02
>>sandwo+n1
Doppler is not a big problem with lasers because the carrier frequency is so much higher than RF that it doesn't matter; it's bang-bang AM modulated.

I'm assuming two things: That something like Manchester coding is being used so that some clock skew is tolerable, and that the laser carrier is not in fact being frequency or phase modulated. Last I checked FM and PM of optical frequencies was not yet practical outside of laboratories, but I'm happy to be corrected.

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38. Tuna-F+aS1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-02 10:13:21
>>FpUser+AW
There are some wavelengths that maintain decent signal quality through cloud cover, and even rainstorms. I cannot find the paper right now, but iirc Tightbeam (formerly from the Google sharks with lasers team, now spun out as Aalyria), demonstrated space to ground comms in adverse weather with negligible packet loss and something like 40% reduced bandwidth.

The customer terminals will likely never connect through lasers (because a laser can only point in one direction at a time), but moving the ground station uplink to a laser link sounds very beneficial.

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39. _0ffh+JE2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-02 15:57:28
>>sepham+KP
You got it exactly right! I worked on a simulation model of the complete optical setup of a laser terminal with movable mirrors and all including the fricking servo motors and a simple orbital model for the relative satellite positions. Plus an interface to drop in the actual acquisition and tracking code used on the embedded control system. All of that just to be able to do reasonably realistic simulations for verification and tuning of the secret sauce.
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