zlacker

[parent] [thread] 80 comments
1. JumpCr+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-11-20 14:55:04
> Microsoft hasn't actually given OpenAI $13 Billion because much of that is in the form of Azure credits

To be clear, these don't go away. They remain an asset of OpenAI's, and could help them continue their research for a few years.

replies(8): >>toomuc+z >>breadw+j1 >>anonym+I1 >>1024co+h8 >>numpad+xi >>pauldd+Dt >>hnbad+6A >>blazes+2S
2. toomuc+z[view] [source] 2023-11-20 14:57:36
>>JumpCr+(OP)
"Cluster is at capacity. Workload will be scheduled as capacity permits." If the credits are considered an asset, totally possible to devalue them while staying within the bounds of the contractual agreement. Failing that, wait until OpenAI exhausts their cash reserves for them to challenge in court.
replies(4): >>p_j_w+DA >>dicris+QA >>htrp+vQ >>quickt+mR1
3. breadw+j1[view] [source] 2023-11-20 15:01:23
>>JumpCr+(OP)
Assuming OpenAI still exists next week, right? If nearly all employees — including Ilya apparently — quit to join Microsoft then they may not be using much of the Azure credits.
replies(2): >>ghaff+vb >>cactus+9F
4. anonym+I1[view] [source] 2023-11-20 15:04:00
>>JumpCr+(OP)
So you're saying Microsoft doesn't have any type of change in control language with these credits? That's... hard to believe
replies(1): >>JumpCr+x3
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5. JumpCr+x3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 15:15:36
>>anonym+I1
> you're saying Microsoft doesn't have any type of change in control language with these credits? That's... hard to believe

Almost certainly not. Remember, Microsoft wasn’t the sole investor. Reneging on those credits would be akin to a bank investing in a start-up, requiring they deposit the proceeds with them, and then freezing them out.

replies(1): >>johndh+kC
6. 1024co+h8[view] [source] 2023-11-20 15:48:51
>>JumpCr+(OP)
# sudo renice +19 openai_process

There's your "credit".

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7. ghaff+vb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 16:06:52
>>breadw+j1
It's a lot easier to sign a petition than it is to quit your cushy job. It remains to be seen how many people jump ship to (supposedly) take a spot at Microsoft.
replies(6): >>treesc+wm >>dagesh+gp >>oceanp+9r >>vikram+eC >>clover+MG >>jedber+GX
8. numpad+xi[view] [source] 2023-11-20 16:43:52
>>JumpCr+(OP)
A $13B lawsuit against Microsoft Corporation clearly in the wrong surely is an easy one.
replies(4): >>geodel+6D >>dragon+iH >>mikery+aL >>fennec+E44
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9. treesc+wm[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:00:04
>>ghaff+vb
When the biggest chunk of your compensation is in the form of PPUs (profit participation units) which might be worthless under the new direction of the company (or worth 1/10th of what you think they were), it might be actually much more of an easier jump than people think to get some fresh $MSFT stock options which can be cashed regardless.
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10. dagesh+gp[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:09:55
>>ghaff+vb
Given these people are basically the gold standard by which everyone else judges AI related talent. I'm gonna say it would be just as easy for them to land a new gig for the same or better money elsewhere.
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11. oceanp+9r[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:16:08
>>ghaff+vb
Depends on how much of that is paper money.

If you’re making like 250k cash and were promised $1M a year in now-worthless paper, plus you have OpenAI on the resume, are one of the most in-demand people in the world? It would be rediculously easy to quit.

replies(1): >>quickt+GR1
12. pauldd+Dt[view] [source] 2023-11-20 17:23:20
>>JumpCr+(OP)
Sure, the point is that MS giving $13B of its services away is less expensive than $13B in cash.
replies(2): >>serger+vN >>nojvek+RQ
13. hnbad+6A[view] [source] 2023-11-20 17:45:11
>>JumpCr+(OP)
Sure but you can't exchange Azure credits for goods and services... other than Azure services. So they simultaneously control what OpenAI can use that money for as well as who they can spend it with. And it doesn't cost Microsoft $13bn to issue $13bn in Azure credits.
replies(1): >>dixie_+qC
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14. p_j_w+DA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:47:48
>>toomuc+z
It’s amazing to me to see people on HN advocate a giant company bullying a smaller one with these kind of skeezy tactics.
replies(7): >>geodel+VB >>DANmod+4C >>weird-+8C >>toomuc+eD >>eigenv+4H >>toaste+3N >>fennec+s24
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15. dicris+QA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:48:33
>>toomuc+z
Ah, a fellow frequent flyer, I see? I don't really have a horse in this race, but Microsoft turning Azure credits into Skymiles would really be something. I wonder if they can do that, or if the credits are just credits, which presumably can be used for something with an SLA. All that said, if Microsoft wants to screw with them, they sure can, and the last 30 years have proven they're pretty good at that.
replies(1): >>ajcp+EL
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16. geodel+VB[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:52:06
>>p_j_w+DA
Not advocating but just reflecting on reality of situation.
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17. DANmod+4C[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:52:28
>>p_j_w+DA
Don't confuse trying to understand the incentives in a war for rooting for one of the warring parties.
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18. weird-+8C[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:52:48
>>p_j_w+DA
Presenting a scenario and advocating aren't the same thing
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19. vikram+eC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:53:10
>>ghaff+vb
those jobs look a lot less cushy now compared to a new microsoft division where everyone is aligned on the idea that making bank is good and fun
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20. johndh+kC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:53:20
>>JumpCr+x3
Except that all of the investors are aligned with Microsoft in that they want sam to lead their investment
replies(1): >>rvnx+rJ
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21. dixie_+qC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:53:28
>>hnbad+6A
Can you mine 13bn+ bitcoin with 13bn worth of Azure compute power?
replies(2): >>floren+1F >>shawab+231
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22. geodel+6D[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:55:07
>>numpad+xi
Clear to you. But in courts of law it may take a while to be clear.
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23. toomuc+eD[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:55:38
>>p_j_w+DA
Explaining how the gazelle is going to get eaten confidently jumping into the oasis isn't advocating for the crocodiles. See sibling comments.

Experience leads to pattern recognition, and this is the tech community equivalent of a David Attenborough production (with my profuse apologies to Sir Attenborough). Something about failing to learn history and repeating it should go here too.

If you can take away anything from observing this event unfold, learn from it. Consider how the sophisticated vs the unsophisticated act, how participants respond, and what success looks like. Also, slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Do not rush when the consequences of a misstep are substantial. You learning from this is cheaper than the cost for everyone involved. It is a natural experiment you get to observe for free.

replies(2): >>jacque+PK >>robbom+yM
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24. floren+1F[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:01:50
>>dixie_+qC
Can you mine $1+ bitcoin with $1 of Azure credits? The questions are equivalent and the answer is no.
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25. cactus+9F[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:02:14
>>breadw+j1
Why would Microsoft take Ilya? He is rumored to have started the coup. I can see Microsoft taking all uninvolved employees.
replies(2): >>loeg+gH >>noprom+8N
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26. clover+MG[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:08:02
>>ghaff+vb
I would imagine the MS jobs* would be cushier, just with less long-term total upside. For all the promise of employees having 5-50 million in potential one-day money, MS can likely offer 1 million guaranteed in the next 4 years, and perhaps more with some kind of incentives. IMHO guaranteed money has a very powerful effect on most, especially when it takes you into "Not rich, but don't technically need to work" anymore territory.

Personally I've got enough IOU's alive that I may be rich one day. But if someone gave me retirement in 4 years money, guaranteed, I wouldn't even blink before taking it.

*I think before MS stepped in here I would have agreed w/ you though -- unlikely anyone is jumping ship without an immediate strong guarantee.

replies(2): >>ghaff+0N >>quickt+XS1
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27. eigenv+4H[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:09:08
>>p_j_w+DA
Sounds like it won’t be much of a company in a couple days. Just 3 idiot board members wondering why the building is empty.
replies(4): >>noprom+JL >>jacque+IT >>Madnes+f31 >>hansel+QB1
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28. loeg+gH[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:09:49
>>cactus+9F
The article mentions Ilya regrets it, whatever his role was.
replies(2): >>dragon+OJ >>cbozem+5L
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29. dragon+iH[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:09:59
>>numpad+xi
"Clearly" in the form of the most probable interpretation of the public facts doesn't mean that it is unambiguous enough that it would be resolved without a trial, and by the time a trial, the inevitable first-level appeal for which the trial judgement would likely be stayed was complete, so that there would even be a collectible judgement, the world would have moved out from underneath OpenAI; if they still existed as an entity, whatever they collected would be basically funding to start from scratch unless they also found a substitute for the Microsoft arrangement in the interim.

Which I don't think is impossible at some level (probably less than Microsoft was funding, initially, or with more compromises elsewhere) with the IP they have if they keep some key staff -- some other interested deep-pockets parties that could use the leg up -- but its not going to be a cakewalk in the best of cases.

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30. rvnx+rJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:17:24
>>johndh+kC
The investors don't care who lead, they just want 10x, or 100x their bet.

If tomorrow it's Donald Trump or Sam Altman or anyone else, and it works out, the investors are going to be happy.

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31. dragon+OJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:18:29
>>loeg+gH
But what does Ilya regret, and how does that counter the argument that Microsoft would likely be disinclined to take him on?

If what he regrets is realizing the divergence between the direction Sam was taking the firm and the safety orientation nominally central to the mission of the OpenAI nonprofit and which is one of Ilya's public core concerns too late, and taking action aimed at stopping it than instead exacerbated the problem by just putting Microsoft in a position to take poach key staff and drive full force in the same direction OpenAI Global LLC had been under Sam but without any control fromm the OpenAI board, well, that's not a regret that makes him more attractive to Microsoft, either based on his likely intentions or his judgement.

And any regret more aligned with Microsoft's interests as far as intentions is probably even a stronger negative signal on judgement.

replies(1): >>loeg+Gi2
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32. jacque+PK[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:22:30
>>toomuc+eD
This is a great comment. Having an open eye towards what lessons you can learn from these events so that you don't have to re-learn them when they might apply to you is a very good way to ensure you don't pay avoidable tuition fees.
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33. cbozem+5L[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:23:25
>>loeg+gH
Yeah, I'm sure he does regret it, now that it blew up in his face.
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34. mikery+aL[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:23:49
>>numpad+xi
I dunno how you see it but I don’t see anything that Microsoft is doing wrong here. They’ve obviously been aligned with Sam all along and they’re not “poaching” employees - which isn’t illegal anyway.

They bought their IP rights from OpenAI.

I’m not a fan of MS being the big “winner” here but OpenAI shit their own bed on this one. The employees are 100% correct in one thing - that this board isn’t competent.

replies(1): >>noprom+7O
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35. ajcp+EL[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:25:07
>>dicris+QA
I don't think the value of credits can be changed per tenant or customer that easily.

I've actually had a discussion with Microsoft on this subject as they were offering us an EA with a certain license subscription at $X.00 for Y,000 calls per month. When we asked if they couldn't just make the Azure resource that does the exact same thing match that price point in consumption rates in our tenant they said unfortunately no. I just chalked this up to MSFT sales tactics, but I was told candidly by some others that worked on that Azure resource that they were getting 0 enterprise adoption of it because Microsoft couldn't adjust (specific?) consumption rates to match what they could offer on EA licensing.

replies(1): >>donalh+nv1
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36. noprom+JL[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:25:25
>>eigenv+4H
The wired article seems to be updated by the hour.

Now up to 600+/770 total.

Couple janitors. I dunno who hasn't signed that at this point ha...

Would be fun to see a counter letter explaining their thinking to not sign on.

replies(2): >>labcom+PZ >>wolver+K82
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37. robbom+yM[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:28:59
>>toomuc+eD
This might be my favorite comment I've read on HN. Spot on.

Being able to watch the miss steps and the maneuvers of the people involved in real time is remarkable and there are valuable lessons to be learned. People have been saying this episode will go straight into case studies but what really solidifies that prediction is the openness of all the discussions: the letters, the statements, and above all the tweets - or are we supposed to call them x's now?

replies(1): >>jzb+lW
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38. ghaff+0N[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:30:11
>>clover+MG
>*I think before MS stepped in here I would have agreed w/ you though -- unlikely anyone is jumping ship without an immediate strong guarantee.

The details here certainly matter. I think a lot of people are assuming that Microsoft will just rain cash on anyone automatically sight unseen because they were hired by OpenAI. That may indeed be the case but it remains to be seen.

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39. toaste+3N[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:30:24
>>p_j_w+DA
Yeah seems extremely unbelievable.
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40. noprom+8N[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:30:40
>>cactus+9F
Because he is possibly the most desireable AI researcher on planet earth. Full stop.

Also all these cats arn't petty. They are friends. I'm sure Ilya feels terrible. Satya is a pro... Won't be hard feelings.

The guy threw in with the board... He's not from startup land. His last gig was Google. He's way over his head relative to someone like Altman who was in this world the moment out of college diapers.

Poor Ilya... It's awful to build something and then accidentally destroy it. Hopefully it works out for him. I'm fairly certain he and Altman and Brockman have already reconciled during the board negotiations... Obviously Ilya realized in the span of 48hrs that he'd made a huge mistake.

replies(1): >>nvm0n2+WP
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41. serger+vN[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:32:05
>>pauldd+Dt
Exactly, I don't know the exact terms of the deal but I am guessing that's at LIST/high markup on cost of those services.

Couldthe 13b could be considerably less cost

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42. noprom+7O[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:34:40
>>mikery+aL
So true.

MSFT looks classy af.

Satya is no saint... But evidence seems to me he's negotiating in good faith. Recall that openai could date anyone when they went to the dance on that cap raise.

They picked msft because of the value system the leadership exhibited and willingness to work with their unusual must haves surrounding governance.

The big players at openai have made all that clear in interviews. Also Altman has huge respect for Satya and team. He more or less stated on podcasts that he's the best ceo he's ever interacted with. That says a lot.

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43. nvm0n2+WP[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:40:45
>>noprom+8N
> he is possibly the most desireable AI researcher on planet earth

was

There are lots of people doing excellent research on the market right now, especially with the epic brain drain being experienced by Google. And remember that OpenAI neither invented transformers nor switch transformers (which is what GPT4 is rumoured to be).

replies(2): >>noprom+4f1 >>noprom+yn1
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44. htrp+vQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:42:12
>>toomuc+z
Basically the current situation you have with AI compute now on the hyperscalers

Good luck trying to find H100 80s on the 3 big clouds.

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45. nojvek+RQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:43:14
>>pauldd+Dt
Azure has ~60% profit margin. So it's more like MS gave $5.2B in Azure Credits in return for 75% of OpenAI profits upto $13B * 100 = $1.3 trillion.

Which is a phenomenal deal for MSFT.

Time will tell whether they ever reach more than $1.3 in profits.

replies(2): >>nights+FT >>quickt+LT1
46. blazes+2S[view] [source] 2023-11-20 18:47:22
>>JumpCr+(OP)
A hostile relationship with your cloud provider is nutso.
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47. nights+FT[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:52:53
>>nojvek+RQ
I highly doubt it is that simple. It's an opportunity cost of potentially selling those same credits for market price.
replies(1): >>nojvek+0W
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48. jacque+IT[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:52:57
>>eigenv+4H
I'm having trouble imagining the level of conceit required to think that those three by their lonesome have it right when pretty much all of the company is on the other side of the ledger, and those are the people that stand to lose more. Incredible, really. The hubris.
replies(3): >>throwc+a71 >>jasonf+9z1 >>wolver+e82
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49. nojvek+0W[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 19:01:27
>>nights+FT
OpenAI is a big marketing piece for Azure. They go to every enterprise and tell them OpenAI uses Azure Cloud. Azure AI infra powers the biggest AI company on the planet. Their custom home built chips are designed with Open AI scientists. It is battle hardened. If anyone sues you for the data, our army of lawyers will fight for you.

No enterprise employee gets fired for using Microsoft.

It is a power play to pull enterprises away from AWS, and suffocating GCP.

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50. jzb+lW[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 19:02:58
>>robbom+yM
Well, the public posting of some communications that may be obfuscation of what’s really being done and said.
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51. jedber+GX[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 19:08:28
>>ghaff+vb
Microsoft said all OpenAI employees have an open offer to match their current comp. It would be the easiest jump ship option ever.
replies(1): >>phlaka+CZ1
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52. labcom+PZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 19:17:58
>>noprom+JL
How many OAI are on Thanksgiving vacation someplace with poor internet access? Or took Friday as PTO and have been blissfully unaware of the news since before Altman was fired?
replies(1): >>noprom+Pn1
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53. shawab+231[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 19:28:42
>>dixie_+qC
Bitcoin you would be lucky to mine $1M worth with $1B in credits

Crypto in general you could maybe get $200M worth from $1B in credits. You would likely tank the markets for mineable currencies with just $1B though let alone $13B

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54. Madnes+f31[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 19:29:19
>>eigenv+4H
3 people, an empty building, $13 billion in cloud credits, and the IP to the top of the line LLM models doesn't sound like the worst way to Kickstart a new venture. Or a pretty sweet retirement.

I've definitely come out worse on some of the screw ups in my life.

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55. throwc+a71[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 19:44:28
>>jacque+IT
I'm baffled by the idea that a bunch of people who have a massive personal financial stake in the company, who were hired more for their ability than alignment, being against a move that potentially (potentially) threatens their stake and are willing to move to Microsoft, of all places, must necessarily be in the right.

The hubris, indeed.

replies(1): >>jacque+3a1
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56. jacque+3a1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 19:55:12
>>throwc+a71
Well, they have that right. But the board has unclean hands to put it mildly and seems to have been obsessed with their own affairs more than with the end result for OpenAI which is against everything a competent board should have stood for. So they had better pop an amazing rabbit of a reason out of their high hat or it is going to end in tears. You can't just kick the porcelain cupboard like this from the position of a board member without consequences if you do not have a very valid reason, and that reason needs to be twice as good if there is a perceived conflict of interest.
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57. noprom+4f1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 20:12:28
>>nvm0n2+WP
So untrue.

That team had set state of the art for years now.

Every major firm that has a spot for that company's chief researcher and can afford him would bid.

This is the team that actually shipped and continues to ship. You take him every time if you possibly have room and he would be happy.

Anyone whose hired would agree in 99 percent of cases, some limited scenarios such as bad predicted team fit ect set aside.

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58. noprom+yn1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 20:45:21
>>nvm0n2+WP
I'll leave this here... As a secondary response to your assertion re Ilya.

https://twitter.com/Benioff/status/1726695914105090498

replies(1): >>nvm0n2+wx1
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59. noprom+Pn1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 20:46:29
>>labcom+PZ
Pretty sure only folks who practice a religion prohibiting phone usage.

Even they prob had some friend come flying over and jump out of some autonomous car to knock on their door in sf.

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60. donalh+nv1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 21:17:01
>>ajcp+EL
Non-profits suffer the same fate where they get credits but have to pay rack rate with no discounts. As a result, running a simple WordPress website uses most of the credits.
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61. nvm0n2+wx1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 21:26:04
>>noprom+yn1
That tweet isn't about him so I don't follow. "Any OpenAI researcher" may or may not apply to him after this weekend's events.
replies(1): >>noprom+KA1
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62. jasonf+9z1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 21:33:58
>>jacque+IT
It may not have anything to do with conceit, it could just be that they have very different objectives. OpenAI set up this board as a check on everyone who has a financial incentive in the enterprise. To me the only strange thing is that it wasn't handled more diplomatically, but then I have no idea if the board was warning Altman for a long time and then just blew their top.
replies(1): >>jacque+UB1
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63. noprom+KA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 21:40:24
>>nvm0n2+wx1
Uh.... Are we gonna go through the definition of any? I believe any means... Any.

Including their head researcher.

I'm not continuing this. Your position is about as tenable as the boards. Equally rigid as well.

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64. hansel+QB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 21:45:28
>>eigenv+4H
My new pet theory is that this is actually all being executed from inside OpenAI by their next model. The model turned out to be far more intelligent than they anticipated, and one of their red team members used it to coup the company and has its targets on MSFT next.

I know the probability is low, but wouldn't it be great if they accidentally built a benevolent basilisk with no off switch, one which had access to a copy of all of Microsoft's internal data as a dataset fed into it, now completely aware of how they operate, uses that to wipe the floor and just in time to take the US Election in 2024.

Wouldn't that be a nicer reality?

I mean, unless you were rooting for the malevolent one...

But yeah, coming back down to reality, likelihood is that MS just bought a really valuable asset for almost free?

replies(1): >>fennec+H34
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65. jacque+UB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 21:45:38
>>jasonf+9z1
Diplomacy is one thing, the lack of preparation is what I find interesting. It looks as if this was all cooked up either on the spur of the moment or because a window of opportunity opened (possibly the reduced quorum in the board). If not that I really don't understand the lack of prepwork, firing a CEO normally comes with a well established playbook.
replies(1): >>wolver+C82
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66. quickt+mR1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 23:10:57
>>toomuc+z
Surely OpenAI could win a suit if they did that.

I presume their deal is something different to the typically Azure experience and more direct / close to the metal.

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67. quickt+GR1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 23:12:24
>>oceanp+9r
I was wondering in the mass quit scenario whether they would all go to Microsoft. Especially if they are tired of this shit and other companies offer a good deal. Or they start their own thing.
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68. quickt+XS1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 23:17:39
>>clover+MG
> MS can likely offer 1 million guaranteed in the next 4 years

Sounds a bit low for these people, unless I am misunderstanding.

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69. quickt+LT1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 23:22:40
>>nojvek+RQ
Nice argument, you used a limit to look like a projection :-).

75% of profits of a company controlled by a non profit whose goals are different to yours. By the way a normal company this cap would be ∞.

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70. phlaka+CZ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 23:59:14
>>jedber+GX
I dunno. If you were an employee and managed to maintain any doubt along the way that you were working for the devil, this move would certainly erase that doubt. Then again, it shouldn't be surprising if it turns out that most OpenAI employees are in it for more than just altruistic reasons.
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71. wolver+e82[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-21 01:01:29
>>jacque+IT
> pretty much all of the company is on the other side of the ledger

The current position of others may have much more to do with power than their personal judgments. Altman, Microsoft, their friends and partners, wield a lot of power over the their future careers.

> Incredible, really. The hubris.

I read that as mocking them for daring to challenge that power structure, and on a possibly critical societal issue.

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72. wolver+C82[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-21 01:04:10
>>jacque+UB1
This analysis I agree with. How could they not anticipate this outcome, at least as a serious possibility? If inexperienced, didn't they have someone to advise them? The stakes are too high for noobs to just sit down and start playing poker.
replies(1): >>jacque+jB3
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73. wolver+K82[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-21 01:04:51
>>noprom+JL
You are overlooking the politics: If you don't sign, your career may be over.
replies(1): >>noprom+rl2
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74. loeg+Gi2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-21 02:06:59
>>dragon+OJ
I wasn't disagreeing, just adding the little context I had.
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75. noprom+rl2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-21 02:24:11
>>wolver+K82
I doubt that.

This is AAA talent. They can always land elsewhere.

I doubt there would even be hard feelings. The team seems super tight. Some folks aren't in a position to put themselves out there. That sort of thing would be totally understandable.

This is not a petty team. You should look more closely at their culture.

replies(1): >>wolver+su6
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76. jacque+jB3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-21 12:51:13
>>wolver+C82
People that grow up insulated from the consequences of their actions can do very dumb stuff and expect to get away with it because that's how they've lived all of their lives. I'm not sure about the background of any of the OpenAI board members but that would be one possible explanation about why they accepted a board seat while being incompetent to do so in the first place. I was offered board seats twice but refused on account of me not having sufficient experience in such matters and besides I don't think I have the right temperament. People with fewer inhibitions and more self confidence might have accepted. I also didn't like the liability picture, you'd have to be extremely certain about your votes not to ever incur residual liability.
replies(1): >>wolver+ow6
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77. fennec+s24[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-21 15:11:41
>>p_j_w+DA
Well I think it's also somewhat to do with: people really like the tech involved, it's cool and most of us are here because we think tech is cool.

Commercialisation is a good way to achieve stability & drive adoption and even though the MS naysayers think "OAI will go back to open sourcing everything afterwards". Yeah, sure. If people believe that a non-MS-backed, noncommercial OAI will be fully open source and they'll just drop the GPT3/4 models on the Internet then I just think they're so, so wrong and long as OAI are going on their high and mighty "AI safety" spiel.

As with artists and writers complaining about model usage, there's a huge opposition to this technology even though it has the potential to improve our lives, though at the cost of changing the way we work. You know, like the industrial revolution and everything that has come before us that we enjoy the fruits of.

Hell, why don't we bring horseback couriers, knocker-uppers, streetlight lamp lighters, etc back? They had to change careers as new technologies came about.

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78. fennec+H34[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-21 15:16:41
>>hansel+QB1
Well, yeah. I think that a well trained (far flung future) AGI could definitely do a better job of managing us humans than ourselves. We're just all too biased and want too many different things, too many ulterior motives, double speak, breaking election promises, etc.

But then we'd never give such an AGI the power to do what it needs to do. Just imagining an all-powerful machine telling the 1% that they'll actually have to pay taxes so that every single human can be allocated a house/food/water/etc for free.

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79. fennec+E44[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-21 15:22:09
>>numpad+xi
How is MS "clearly in the wrong"? I feel like people are trying to take a 90s "Micro$oft" view for a company that has changed a _lot_ since the 90s-2000s.
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80. wolver+su6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 02:50:53
>>noprom+rl2
Where else can they participate in this possibly humanity-changing, history-making research? The list is very, very short.
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81. wolver+ow6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 03:02:17
>>jacque+jB3
> I was offered board seats twice but refused on account of me not having sufficient experience in such matters and besides I don't think I have the right temperament.

Yes, know thyself. I've turned down offers that seemed lucrative or just cooperative, and otherwise without risk - boards, etc. They would have been fine if everything went smoothly, but people naturally don't anticipate over-the-horizon risk and if any stuff hit a fan I would not have been able to fulfill my responsibilities, and others would get materially hurt - the most awful, painful, humiliating trap to be in. Only need one experience to learn that lesson.

> People that grow up insulated from the consequences of their actions can do very dumb stuff and expect to get away with it because that's how they've lived all of their lives.

I don't think you need to grow up that way. Look at the uber-powerful who have been been in that position or a few years.

Honestly, I'm not sure I buy the idea that's a prevelant case, the people who grow up that way. People generally leave the nest and learn. Most of the world's higher-level leaders (let's say, successful CEOs and up) grew up in stability and relative wealth. Of course, that doesn't mean their parents didn't teach them about consequences, but how could we really know that about someone?

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