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[parent] [thread] 62 comments
1. mirzap+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-11-18 09:29:34
This is escalating rather quickly. It is an incredibly irresponsible move by the OpenAI board. Hypergrowing company, and now they managed to shake up their user's trust in leadership stability. This has Adam's (D'Angelo) fingerprints all over it (for context, he did overthrow his co-founder, and Quora has been struggling ever since). This guy shouldn't sit on any board ever again.

I predict the board will be fired, and Sam and the team will return and try to contain the situation.

replies(9): >>chasd0+w2 >>theonl+W4 >>andrew+n5 >>Iv+n6 >>concor+J8 >>klohto+Pb >>ashu14+Ki >>TheBig+KN >>egbert+5m1
2. chasd0+w2[view] [source] 2023-11-18 09:53:54
>>mirzap+(OP)
Who fires the board at a 501.3c?
replies(3): >>mirzap+G4 >>andrew+d5 >>Iv+X5
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3. mirzap+G4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 10:11:24
>>chasd0+w2
They resign under public pressure, I guess?
replies(1): >>Raston+S9
4. theonl+W4[view] [source] 2023-11-18 10:13:29
>>mirzap+(OP)
At its core this isn't a company though, and that's perhaps what was at issue.
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5. andrew+d5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 10:15:30
>>chasd0+w2
I absolutely guarantee you when Microsoft owns 50% that they paid $50,000,000,000 for, that Microsoft is really in charge.

The board and Ilya will all be gone within a month.

replies(5): >>concor+u8 >>jessri+2b >>junto+Rb >>cthalu+lc >>andrew+QC5
6. andrew+n5[view] [source] 2023-11-18 10:16:51
>>mirzap+(OP)
I’d be surprised if Sam does. He’s free now to compete and defeat with a huge equity stake.
replies(2): >>mirzap+vc >>andomi+061
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7. Iv+X5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 10:21:02
>>chasd0+w2
In that case, Microsoft
replies(1): >>michpo+T7
8. Iv+n6[view] [source] 2023-11-18 10:23:45
>>mirzap+(OP)
> and now they managed to shake up their user's trust in leadership stability

Do users care about that? I care about features stability and avoidance of shitification.

That's why I am usually preferring open models to depending on OpenAI's API. This drama has me curious about the outcome and if it leads to more openness from OpenAI, it may gain me back as a user.

replies(4): >>jawaka+Te >>dash2+rq >>Modern+Xu >>infamo+nL2
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9. michpo+T7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 10:35:10
>>Iv+X5
Microsoft own stake in the for-profit company. They do not have a stake in the non-profit. The for-profit is in majority owned by the non-profit org.
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10. concor+u8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 10:40:40
>>andrew+d5
Via what mechanism?
11. concor+J8[view] [source] 2023-11-18 10:41:46
>>mirzap+(OP)
Are you forgetting its a nonprofit? How could the board be fired? What does their charter say is the mechanism for removing a board member?
replies(1): >>mirzap+4c
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12. Raston+S9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 10:53:52
>>mirzap+G4
Why would they if they are advancing the goals of the non-profit and Altman was endangering that goal?
replies(1): >>jdthed+6h
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13. jessri+2b[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 11:04:11
>>andrew+d5
They're not. They don't have board seats. The mission-driven founders of Open AI were very serious about ensuring this.
replies(1): >>thawab+we
14. klohto+Pb[view] [source] 2023-11-18 11:10:34
>>mirzap+(OP)
“Fired by whom, Ben? Fucking aquamen?”.

The board did become un-boardable in any future company, but they are not resigning.

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15. junto+Rb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 11:11:05
>>andrew+d5
That makes very little sense. Microsoft spent the last week enthusing about the leadership and vision of OpenAI and their strong partnership, even in Nadella’s keynote speech at the Ignite conference. It’s Microsoft’s biggest event of the year. This makes them look pretty stupid, and the announcement came before market closing hours on a Friday, which put in dent in their share price.

However, I would not be surprised if Microsoft take advantage of this unexpected situation for their gain.

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16. mirzap+4c[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 11:13:06
>>concor+J8
Yeah, I misspoke earlier. Although nobody has actual power on paper, public and investor pressure can be just as influential.
replies(2): >>toomuc+td >>CPLX+Bu
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17. cthalu+lc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 11:15:04
>>andrew+d5
https://openai.com/our-structure

Microsoft doesn't even own a majority stake in the for-profit, much less anything at all in the non-profit that ultimately controls everything.

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18. mirzap+vc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 11:16:32
>>andrew+n5
We could be witnessing another Apple-Jobs moment. He could go and pursue other interests, but I have a feeling that he deeply cares about OpenAI. If that's the case, he will be back eventually, just as Jobs returned to Apple repeatedly.
replies(1): >>LightM+zq
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19. toomuc+td[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 11:23:13
>>mirzap+4c
Could Microsoft not hire Sam (reporting directly to Satya) and those who departed and equip them with compute access and ancillary resources? It seems less of a lift than salvaging the OpenAI situation internally due to the emotions and politics involved, non competes not existing in California (broadly speaking), and the logistics of attempting to apply pressure to a 501c3 board with very little leverage. The value is in the team, many who are now free agents.

Parting ways with OpenAI might be the only option if the org remains firm on the direction it has chosen. Build internally to reach capability parity and then accelerate ahead of them while slowly rolling out of the agreement with OpenAI, reallocating those previously committed resources internally.

“Due to the actions of OpenAI’s board, Microsoft had no choice but defend its investment in this revolutionary technology.” The pr wire writes itself.

replies(4): >>Kye+dl >>LightM+gq >>voisin+Su >>angora+AG
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20. thawab+we[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 11:30:12
>>jessri+2b
with the amount they paid, how did they not get a seat in the board?
replies(1): >>cthalu+Ve
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21. jawaka+Te[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 11:33:29
>>Iv+n6
> Do users care about that? I care about features stability and avoidance of shitification.

Maybe not the individual users, but the enterprises/startups which builds around OpenAI.

replies(1): >>jawaka+df
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22. cthalu+Ve[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 11:34:01
>>thawab+we
They did not ever have the possibility of one but decided that their investment was still worth the return.

We can debate whether or not that was wise of them, but because of the charter and structure of OpenAI it was never on the table.

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23. jawaka+df[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 11:36:05
>>jawaka+Te
Thread about this >>38316682
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24. jdthed+6h[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 11:49:58
>>Raston+S9
Hahaha "advancing the goals of non profit" right after making billions.

All of a sudden their amnesia stopped huh?

Hypocrites and virtue signallers, the whole board.

replies(2): >>Raston+gi >>coffee+d01
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25. Raston+gi[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 11:58:41
>>jdthed+6h
I mean, the board doesn't have equity and the for-profit subsidiary is profit capped
replies(1): >>jdthed+Bi
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26. jdthed+Bi[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 12:01:19
>>Raston+gi
They still stand to benefit personally, do they not?
replies(1): >>cthalu+zl
27. ashu14+Ki[view] [source] 2023-11-18 12:02:05
>>mirzap+(OP)
Who can fire the board ? Who decides ?
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28. Kye+dl[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 12:18:19
>>toomuc+td
There's already a Microsoft Sam.
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29. cthalu+zl[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 12:20:26
>>jdthed+Bi
By what mechanism? 3/4ths the remaining board have no financial interests in OpenAI.
replies(1): >>jdthed+jm
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30. jdthed+jm[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 12:24:56
>>cthalu+zl
Personal/moral: "Championing" non-profit after reaping the fruits of massive commercial success

Monetary: Promotions and payouts (now or future)? Equity is not the only way

replies(1): >>cthalu+cM
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31. LightM+gq[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 12:54:27
>>toomuc+td
Even if they could, why would Sam accept it? The smartest move for Sam is to just start his own for-profit company, easily raise a fuckton of money, hire all the talents from OpenAI and carry on with whatever he was doing. I think this is OpenAI's loss more than anything else. Now if the reason is truly a push against Sam's for-profit direction, I wonder if OpenAI will back it up by releasing their models to the public again. That would be world-changing, specially if the successor to GPT-4 is already trained.
replies(2): >>toomuc+wq >>sanp+Aw
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32. dash2+rq[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 12:56:20
>>Iv+n6
They're trying to get to AGI. I don't think keeping the current chatGPT feature stable is their primary goal.
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33. toomuc+wq[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 12:57:23
>>LightM+gq
It’s a fair point, and I suppose the question is the math around the equity potential of a new org built from scratch vs being issued a boatload of Microsoft equity, the future profit potential from that grant, while being able to walk right in to a fully operationalized env.
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34. LightM+zq[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 12:57:45
>>mirzap+vc
Completely different situation. Jobs couldn't just fundraise for his new Oranges company, lure all the talent out of Apple and outcompete it at that point. Sam can do that to OpenAI in a blink if that's his plans.
replies(2): >>cthalu+0S >>ksherl+CB2
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35. CPLX+Bu[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 13:23:56
>>mirzap+4c
There aren’t investors. It’s a non profit.

Everyone seems to have lost their mind missing this point.

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36. voisin+Su[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 13:24:53
>>toomuc+td
> The pr wire writes itself.

Technically speaking, only because PR has been replaced by ChatGPT :-)

replies(1): >>seanmc+9q6
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37. Modern+Xu[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 13:24:58
>>Iv+n6
Leadership stability is feature stability and avoidance of shitification. Just look at Twitter, I mean X.
replies(1): >>blulul+ld1
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38. sanp+Aw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 13:33:32
>>LightM+gq
Sam and the board have realized the existing structure of OpenAI does not make them (Sam, board, investors) as wealthy as a for-profit structure would. This is the start of winding down OpenAI. I will not be surprised at all if Sam does what you have said and some members of the existing board invest.
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39. angora+AG[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 14:30:29
>>toomuc+td
> It seems less of a lift

I’ve seen this expression a lot recently and it baffles me.

The word you are looking for is “effort,” or if you prefer adjectives, maybe something like “difficult.”

replies(2): >>Kye+6K >>collin+aE2
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40. Kye+6K[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 14:49:34
>>angora+AG
This will blow your mind but English has endless dialects and minor variations. This is like complaining that someone calls soda pop or says y'all.
replies(3): >>macint+OR >>orand+B01 >>angora+no1
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41. cthalu+cM[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 15:03:09
>>jdthed+jm
Is it a massive commercial success? They have received significant funding, and likely have high revenue, but is it profitable? Is it in a position to be profitable? We're not in the world of companies getting decades of runway from VCs anymore, between concerns around a recession (justified or not), higher interest rates, etc.

There's rapidly becoming more and more competitors in this space, as well. OpenAI has a significant first-mover advantage, but I don't know that it is insurmountable, and I doubt investors are confident that it is either. That means they're even less likely to have infinite runway.

So I'm not sure there's personal/moral success at this point in the story for the board to begin with.

Monetary - 3/4ths the board is independent. They are not actually employed by OpenAI. There's nothing to promote them to, and nothing in the charter of the non-profit that would give them payouts.

42. TheBig+KN[view] [source] 2023-11-18 15:13:40
>>mirzap+(OP)
How do you know that? What did the ceo do?
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43. macint+OR[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 15:39:53
>>Kye+6K
Englisc must ðêos hwierfan
replies(1): >>Kye+q01
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44. cthalu+0S[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 15:40:38
>>LightM+zq
I'm kind of confused where the confidence comes from that Sam could somehow lure all of the talent out of OpenAI. One of the most important technical talents was apparently the key player in Sam's ouster to begin with, and we have no idea if these three people are leaving because they want to follow Sam or because they want to avoid the drama that is sure to follow, or how much of the rest of the talent feels even remotely like they do.
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45. coffee+d01[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 16:26:58
>>jdthed+6h
They do need billions to train the next generation models though
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46. Kye+q01[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 16:28:11
>>macint+OR
My very rough attempt at translation: "Yes, English must change"

Am I close?

replies(1): >>macint+cC1
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47. orand+B01[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 16:29:21
>>Kye+6K
Spoken like a true language hypergrowth apologist.
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48. andomi+061[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 16:58:05
>>andrew+n5
No I don't think he really is free to compete. I think three letter agencies pulled the plug after his disturbing performance in Congress and attempt to strong arm the US government. It made me physically sick to watch.
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49. blulul+ld1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 17:34:06
>>Modern+Xu
When leadership takes on a gigantic amount of VC backed debt that must be paid back whether or not there was ever a business model that could justify the loans, then you get shitificaition.
50. egbert+5m1[view] [source] 2023-11-18 18:16:05
>>mirzap+(OP)
Ummm, most board members have some form of Microsoft connections, so for any hidden non-profit shareholders to fire any number of the board remains dubious, at best.
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51. angora+no1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 18:26:46
>>Kye+6K
I’m aware, but this phrase seems to be more meaningless corporate-speak than regional dialect or variation. The only purpose of phrases like this is to make the speaker sound smart at the cost of obfuscating what they mean.
replies(2): >>Kye+Rr1 >>jimmyd+ys1
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52. Kye+Rr1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 18:45:18
>>angora+no1
How is it obfuscated? The meaning is perfectly clear in context. You're stretching too much for this lift.
replies(1): >>angora+JW1
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53. jimmyd+ys1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 18:49:38
>>angora+no1
Obfuscating? What's the purpose of using this fancy word? Why not just say "make hard to understand?"
replies(2): >>angora+lW1 >>fuzzte+TW5
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54. macint+cC1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 19:46:56
>>Kye+q01
I tried for “English must not change” but sadly I never bought that Anglo-Saxon dictionary I lusted after in my favorite used bookstore 30 years ago.
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55. angora+lW1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 21:42:11
>>jimmyd+ys1
I’m not against using big words when they’re used according to their actual accepted meaning. But take my upvote regardless :)
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56. angora+JW1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-18 21:44:08
>>Kye+Rr1
> You’re stretching too much for this lift

I read/hear sentences like this all day at work and I’ve taken to just interpreting them literally. So I’ll have you know I’m neither exercising nor on an elevator right now.

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57. ksherl+CB2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 01:41:53
>>LightM+zq
Steve Jobs did take a bunch of Apple employees with him to NeXT. All of them, no, but enough to build something better than what Apple had built.
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58. collin+aE2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 01:58:16
>>angora+AG
Idioms exist and probably always will. I personally think they add a pleasant amount of variety and depth to communication, and sometimes even add deep nuance/context (even if I don't like every set of jargon or slang).

Even your "looking for" is a metaphor since you technically can't "look" for words (except as a metaphor for literally reading in a dictionary?) but we all know exactly what you mean. Moreover, if we trimmed language down to a minimal set and always used extremely precise meaning that might be an even worse experience than the "corporate speak" you're frustrated by.

Maybe you can redirect your anger to the part of corporate speak that I personally find annoying which is not the phrases per se but the propensity for using lots of words to say very little and to avoid directly taking responsibility for things. Let's put a pin in that one for now though and get something on the calendar to hash that out so we can get on the same page and circle back when we have a better bird's eye view on the action items and the right person to be decider :)

On the other hand you could take up loglan/lojban and maybe end up happier? Especially if it resulted in fewer meetings and managers.

replies(1): >>fuzzte+YV5
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59. infamo+nL2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 02:40:08
>>Iv+n6
> Do users care about that? I care about features stability and avoidance of shitification.

I pay for ChatGPT, and I care.

What percentage of users, and how many in absolute numbers is a matter of debate, but this nonsense (and it is nonsense) is antithetical to building a strong trusting relationship with AI. At the very least it's as antithetical to their mission.

If we take a step back, the benchmark now is to be actually transparent. Radically transparent. Like when Elon purchased Twitter and aired all the dirty laundry in the Twitter Files transparent. The cowards at OpenAI hiding behind lawyers advising them of lawsuits are just that, cowards. Leaders stand by their principles in the darkest of times, regardless of whatever highfalutin excuses one could hide behind. It's pathetic and embarrassing. A lawsuit at a heavily funded tech startup at this level is not even a speeding ticket in the grand scheme of things.

95%+ of tech startup wisdom from the last decade is completely irrelevant now. We're living in a new era. The idea people will forget this in a month doesn't hold for AI. It holds for food delivery apps, not AI tech the public believes (right or wrong) might be an existential threat to their prosperity and economic future.

The degree of leadership buffoonery taking place at OpenAI is not acceptable and one must be genuinely stupid to defend it. Everyone involved should resign if they have any self-respect.

My prognostication is the market will express it's displeasure in the coming weeks and months, setting the tone for everyone else going forward. How the hell is anyone supposed to trust OpenAI after this?

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60. andrew+QC5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-19 22:21:32
>>andrew+d5
To all the commenters in this thread, here we are a few days later.....

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-11-19/openai-ne...

OpenAI Negotiations to Reinstate Altman Hit Snag Over Board Role

    OpenAI’s leaders want board removed, but directors resisting
    Microsoft’s Nadella leading high-stakes talks on Altman return
Sam Altman

Photographer: Joel Saget/AFP/Getty Images Have a confidential tip for our reporters? Get in Touch Before it’s here, it’s on the Bloomberg Terminal LEARN MORE By Emily Chang, Edward Ludlow, Rachel Metz, and Dina Bass November 20, 2023 at 7:17 AM GMT+11 Updated on November 20, 2023 at 7:47 AM GMT+11

A group of OpenAI executives and investors racing to get Sam Altman reinstated to his role as chief executive officer have reached an impasse over the makeup and role of the board, according to people familiar with the negotiations. The decision to restore Altman’s role as CEO could come quickly, though talks are fluid and still ongoing.

At midday Sunday, Altman and former President Greg Brockman were in the startup’s headquarters, according to people familiar with the matter.

OpenAI leaders pushing for the board to resign and to reinstate Altman include Interim CEO Mira Murati, Chief Strategy Officer Jason Kwon and Chief Operating Officer Brad Lightcap, according to a person with knowledge of the discussions. foundering_tout

Altman, who was fired Friday, is open to returning but wants to see governance changes — including the removal of existing board members, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the negotiations are private. After facing intense pressure following their decision to fire Altman Friday, the board agreed in principle to step down, but have so far refused to officially do so. The directors have been vetting candidates for new directors.

At the center of the high-stakes negotiations between the executives, investors and the board is Microsoft Corp. CEO Satya Nadella. Nadella has been leading the charge on talks between the different factions, some of the people said. Microsoft is OpenAI’s biggest investor, with $13 billion invested in the company.

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61. fuzzte+YV5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 00:10:04
>>collin+aE2
yeah!

and also:

let's all jump on a call, set kras so we stay on the ball, up our team work to get that perk, get our messaging right, so the kpi chart goes up and to the right.

go team! play ball!

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62. fuzzte+TW5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 00:14:40
>>jimmyd+ys1
Obfuscating is an easy word to understand. Only 11 letters. You, sir, are phantasmagorical. (16)
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63. seanmc+9q6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 03:51:17
>>voisin+Su
> Technically speaking, only because PR has been replaced by ChatGPT :-)

It only appears like that because PR writing has become careful and systematic, which is the kind of writing ChatGPT does very well.

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