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1. kr0bat+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-09-26 22:55:12

  I came to realize that there was a long-standing scientific controversy in the field, and I felt that I had no choice but to get to the bottom of things myself. Although I am not a medical doctor, I hold a PhD in neuroscience and am familiar with critically reading scientific literature. I decided that I would invest as much time as necessary to learn everything I possibly could on the subject. At that point, there was nothing in my life more important than finding out what had really happened to my son.
This is why higher education (and academic mettle) is amazing
replies(2): >>dartos+ta >>rossan+Hc1
2. dartos+ta[view] [source] 2023-09-26 23:55:18
>>kr0bat+(OP)
I think that speaks more towards the author than higher education.

Definitely a tangent, but attributing that attitude to higher education is like someone attributing a doctor saving their life to an act of god. Like yeah if you squint I guess that’s true.

My experience with higher education has been that of administrators taking advantage of my naivety for profit, elitism towards those not in academia, and dismissal of any ideas that wouldn’t directly result in a grant or a good headline.

I wouldn’t really say that the author’s “mettle” is a result of the same environment.

replies(2): >>sander+Yh >>autoex+bm
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3. sander+Yh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 00:37:34
>>dartos+ta
Yeah I dunno... I mean, a lot of these things are true, and they all are big problems, but also, in my experience, academics (at least in the sciences) do actually know how to read and understand research, which is an extremely difficult and useful skill.
replies(4): >>hypert+Qk >>j16sdi+Jn >>dartos+Bu >>cdogl+J01
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4. hypert+Qk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 00:57:01
>>sander+Yh
Yeah, I think "mettle" here is like a sword and shield and the ability to use them (read and understand scientific literature, and able to do so, self-directed, for years).

But whether a person does use them, and for what, is entirely due to the person themselves.

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5. autoex+bm[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:05:12
>>dartos+ta
Lots of other parents driven to look for answers about what happened to their child, but being far less educated on how to read and understand academic papers, ended up "doing their own research" and became antivaxxers. There's a lot to be said for having an education that enables you to evaluate scientific literature effectively.
replies(2): >>faerie+Es >>cm2012+CA
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6. j16sdi+Jn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:15:54
>>sander+Yh
Isn't that just what PhD do? I meant going through piles of papers - most of them bring more new questions than answers - and stay sane
replies(1): >>sander+7X1
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7. faerie+Es[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 01:46:59
>>autoex+bm
I was in a private discussion group during the pandemic that "did their own research"

First off, this was genuinely valuable during the first few months. Gigantic medical institutions were moving at a glacial pace and were making proclamations literally months behind the state of the research. In order to conserve masks, propaganda was put out that masks were only effective if you were a medical professional, and the most common way I saw this rationalised was that the general public was simply too stupid to wear a mask in a sanitary way. So I proceeded to wear a mask in a sanitary way. Then after a few months mask stocks started to pile up so propagandists THEN pronounced that more science was conducted and masks were actually effective for everybody!

That positive outcome aside, what other people saw was that the younger people got, the lower the risks of COVID, and the higher the risks of getting vaccinated. In fact, it seemed from the numbers (This is for the earlier strains of COVID), that for certain populations (young people who lived like hermits, in other words, hacker news readers) it could be on a selfish individual basis, be irrational to get the COVID vaccine. The risk from myocarditis could actually outweigh the risk of COVID itself. It was however, always in the collective interest for as many people to get vaccinated as possible, to reduce the transmission of COVID, and reduce the consequent strain on medical resources and the direct/indirect deaths this caused. Public health institutions did not get into this nuance, because it wasn't in the collective interest, so they just told everybody the vaccine was good for you. I proceeded to get vaccinated, and the main person I held discussions with did not, after both drawing the exact same scientific conclusion. Not every anti-vaccer was stupid, some of them were just massive civil libertarians.

What I saw from people who DIDN'T do their own research is that they were UNIFORMLY misinformed because they tended to either believe institutions who would lie to them whenever it served their purposes (2 weeks to flatten the curve!), or believed whatever podcaster told them about Ivermectin.

replies(1): >>linuxf+Lz
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8. dartos+Bu[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:00:27
>>sander+Yh
That’s okay, I know.

Anyone with the wherewithal can learn to “read and understand research” it’s not a magical power bestowed upon the few who receive recognition from some long standing bloated institution.

Attributing the drive and work of an individual to such an institution is weird and elitist.

I should note that if said institution paid for, assembled the team, and provided resources, then that institution obviously deserves credit.

replies(1): >>sander+dW1
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9. linuxf+Lz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:32:31
>>faerie+Es
We know now that the CDC and the manufacturers (and the media) lied about efficacy regarding preventing transmission/infection. In fact, the trials didn't even attempt to measure transmission or infection, and were not ever authorized for such. The only thing they were authorized for was reducing the severity.

Do not perpetuate the myth that the vaccines slowed the spread.

replies(3): >>faerie+mD >>bluGil+ID >>tsimio+F31
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10. cm2012+CA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 02:39:53
>>autoex+bm
The kind of people who get PhDs can also figure out how to read academic papers on their own. There's a lot of correlation/causation mix up on this thread.

For instance, people who get accepted into Harvard but don't attend have the exact same life outcomes to those who get accepted and do attend. The same is now true for college in general once you account for opportunity costs.

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11. faerie+mD[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 03:01:34
>>linuxf+Lz
No, I think I will stand by my position that the vaccines did in fact slow the spread, especially early on. I think there is LOTS of evidence about the vaccines effects on transmission which points to them being effective.

Also think back to before we had good evidence on transmissibility/infection. Myocarditis hit the young, who were the last to be vaccinated, and consequently among the last to be researched. So the evidence of the vaccinations effects on transmissibility/infection led the evidence about myocarditis. Before either of those bits of evidence came out, the vaccines were nevertheless VERY effective at reducing hospitalisations from COVID-19 caused by early strains in those initial trials. I've also only really heard of the Pfizer trial's being severely criticised after the fact.

So there was good cause to get vaccinated the entire time, although the value of vaccination kept dropping as new strains kept cropping up which were seemingly less impaired by vaccination, and after omicron I saw a huge amount of people start to skip vaccination.

replies(1): >>ifyoub+8J
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12. bluGil+ID[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 03:04:18
>>linuxf+Lz
While is was not measured directly, we can still look at other data. People who don't get COVID obviously cannot spread it, and so we know vaccines were effective to slow the spread. They were not good enough to stop it, but they did slow it.
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13. ifyoub+8J[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 03:42:09
>>faerie+mD
> I think there is LOTS of evidence about the vaccines effects on transmission which points to them being effective.

Can you point to some canonical sources on this? Preferably things that were published in the last year or so.

My understanding is that effects on infection and transmission were overstated and very short lived anyway. Didn't everybody get covid eventually, multiple times even?

replies(1): >>adgjls+XL
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14. adgjls+XL[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 04:02:33
>>ifyoub+8J
Everyone getting covid and slowing transmission aren't incompatible. In the no lockdown, no vaccine world, everyone gets covid in ~100 days. With vaccines that period is a lot longer (roughly a year?) even though omicron has roughly twice as high a transmission rate. The simplest proof that vaccines have an effect on transmission is the number of infected people by vaccine status. There have been dozens of studies of this (see https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccine-effectiven...) but this really is one where you can just eyeball the effects https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/10/28/us/covid-brea....
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15. cdogl+J01[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 06:16:33
>>sander+Yh
Many academics have these skills; whether the higher education system is effective at teaching them and delivers an experience worth the significant cost to students (or here in Australia, also the publics).
replies(1): >>sander+JW1
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16. tsimio+F31[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 06:47:43
>>linuxf+Lz
You can go ahead and read the trials yourself. They very much found that the vaccines were excellent at preventing Covid-19 entirely (they did not measure if they also prevented SARS-CoV-2 asymptomatic infection).

It just turns out that they had far too little data and that in real-world conditions they weren't anywhere near the 90+% claimed effectiveness.

Even so, the latest population-level research still suggests that the vaccines were 50-60% effective at preventing Covid-19 entirely, at least for some months.

replies(1): >>linuxf+fD1
17. rossan+Hc1[view] [source] 2023-09-27 08:07:52
>>kr0bat+(OP)
Yes, I met other parents with higher education/a scientific background (researchers, engineers...) and living the same situation with their child. They naturally question the assertions by healthcare professionals, they make their own research, they ask highly precise and relevant questions to such a point that most doctors are simply unable to answer...

I remember that as I was questioning the diagnosis at the hospital and trying to make sure there wasn't another medical explanation, I was basically threatened by doctors who told me, "Just stop asking questions and accuse your nanny as everyone else, or you'll be the one in trouble". Apparently, it was very unusual for a parent to refrain from accusing the nanny when she was the suspect number 1!

I actually know one case where the parents (with a high education) were "too fast" in exonerating their nanny and tried to find a second medical opinion on their own to find out why their child was sick. Well, the judicial system didn't like it and they ended up being accused themselves. Their child was taken away for 4 months. The trauma was so intense that their family didn't survive and they eventually divorced (that's unfortunately the fate of many, if not most families).

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18. linuxf+fD1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 11:41:27
>>tsimio+F31
First, they still haven't released all the trial data. Second, the data the FDA released on their own website for the Pfizer trials proved they didn't even test all of the participants in the trial for COVID, nor did they test all the 'suspected but unverified' cases of COVID.

There simply is no data to prove they ever prevented transmission. The trials were the best place to prove that, and they DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER TO TRY.

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19. sander+dW1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 13:31:22
>>dartos+Bu
I think this is a misunderstanding of how stuff works. I agree that anyone (or at least a large percentage of people) can learn to do it and it isn't a magical power.

But it's far more common for academics to be able to do it because that's what academics learn to do. It's a large focus of the training.

It isn't elitist to say "car mechanics are good at reading and acting on the information in car engine manuals", that's just what car mechanics are trained to do and get consistent practice at doing.

replies(1): >>dartos+j82
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20. sander+JW1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 13:34:18
>>cdogl+J01
I would argue that it's clearly the most effective system at training people to do this. It's fine to imagine (and try to create) alternative systems that would work better. But there isn't one now.

Constructive criticism is good. But what I mostly see (and often do myself) is just grousing.

replies(1): >>dartos+ZQ3
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21. sander+7X1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 13:36:20
>>j16sdi+Jn
Yep. That's exactly what I'm saying. This is like the primary skill that people learn to get a PhD. It's true that people can learn it without getting a PhD, but hardly anyone does, because it kind of sucks and if you're doing it you may as well do it with the guidance of an advisor and get a credential at the end.
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22. dartos+j82[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 14:28:17
>>sander+dW1
I don’t think there’s any misunderstanding. Your comment seems in line with what I said and what I believe.

One can teach themselves how to be a mechanic and pass the ASE. Most go through some course to learn the trade, of course. It’s more structured that way and many find it easier.

I’ve never had my auto repair shop attribute their mechanic’s skill to where they learned to be a mechanic. I never turned down a mechanic bc they didn’t go to the brown or Harvard of car repair.

On the other hand I’m an expert in my field, but I’ve been turned down from at least 1 job specifically because I didn’t graduate from Brown university. (It was a backend job for the now-defunct Delivery Dudes)

OP attributed the mettle of the author to higher education and academia, which I think is weird and elitist.

Attributing success or ability to an institution fosters that kind of weird elitism.

replies(1): >>sander+IN4
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23. dartos+ZQ3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-27 21:44:36
>>sander+JW1
Yeah you’re not wrong at all. I’m not saying “down with academia” or anything like that.

Just that attributing the work and work ethic of an individual to the institution of academia is weird and fosters and propagates elitism.

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24. sander+IN4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-28 05:04:23
>>dartos+j82
Fair enough.
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