zlacker

[parent] [thread] 22 comments
1. gruez+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-08-07 18:08:53
Called it a few days ago: >>37022827

It's baffling how many people in previous threads thought a company that gets most of its money from enterprise/business clients, will burn all their reputation by surreptitiously using client data to train their AI.

replies(3): >>tailsp+td >>ec1096+Wt >>burkam+JD
2. tailsp+td[view] [source] 2023-08-07 18:59:53
>>gruez+(OP)
Given the company’s history, it doesn’t seem very baffling at all…

> Zoom has agreed to pay $85 million to settle claims that it lied about offering end-to-end encryption and gave user data to Facebook and Google without the consent of users. The settlement between Zoom and the filers of a class-action lawsuit also covers security problems [0]

> Mac update nukes dangerous webserver installed by Zoom [1]

> The 'S' in Zoom, Stands for Security - uncovering (local) security flaws in Zoom's macOS client [2]

[0] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/08/zoom-to-pay-85m-...

[1] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/07/silen...

[2] https://objective-see.org/blog/blog_0x56.html

replies(1): >>hacker+Mf
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3. hacker+Mf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-07 19:06:43
>>tailsp+td
That seems an intentional business decision where expected value of fine < perceived benefit. $85M is little
replies(1): >>TheRea+Uw
4. ec1096+Wt[view] [source] 2023-08-07 19:57:52
>>gruez+(OP)
Always wise to remember Hanlon's razor: "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence"

Occam's razor also applies here.

replies(7): >>gjsman+QH >>JohnFe+fK >>hypeit+JN >>functi+h61 >>ranger+bo1 >>jwie+bt2 >>checky+dX3
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5. TheRea+Uw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-07 20:10:32
>>hacker+Mf
$85M may be nothing to Apple, Facebook, or Google, but to Zoom it's a substantial amount. Their quarterly net income for Q1 2023 was only 15.4M.

(Even if revenue was much higher. Revenue doesn't tell you anything about how well a company can take a financial hit)

replies(1): >>jackpt+lF
6. burkam+JD[view] [source] 2023-08-07 20:46:44
>>gruez+(OP)
Yes, who could imagine such a thing from a company that leaked personal data without consent (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58050391) and lied about end-to-end encryption for 5 years (https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2020/11/...).
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7. jackpt+lF[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-07 20:55:13
>>TheRea+Uw
Aren't those fines inflated due to the companies having a large revenue/to make an example?
replies(1): >>TheRea+Z31
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8. gjsman+QH[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-07 21:09:18
>>ec1096+Wt
I'm sorry, I didn't maliciously stab the guy, I was just really, really, really incompetent with handling this axe.
replies(2): >>ec1096+iO >>denton+nL2
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9. JohnFe+fK[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-07 21:22:26
>>ec1096+Wt
I think Hanlon's razor isn't true often enough to consider it a valid rule of thumb.

But, really, does it matter whether the bad thing is caused by incompetence or malice outside of a court of law? The bad thing happens either way.

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10. hypeit+JN[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-07 21:40:34
>>ec1096+Wt
Let's please not pretend like philosophical razors are anything other than rhetorical devices. There's exactly zero data to back any of them up and it wouldn't matter if there was since each case is unique.

There is however research (that aligns with a lot of people's experience) to suggest psychopaths and sociopaths are very over represented in leadership:

https://www.sakkyndig.com/psykologi/artvit/babiak2010.pdf

replies(1): >>ec1096+YH3
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11. ec1096+iO[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-07 21:44:06
>>gjsman+QH
It doesn't apply in all situations, clearly.
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12. TheRea+Z31[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-07 23:28:42
>>jackpt+lF
I wish, the bigger the company, the smaller the fines (proportionally) tend to be. Like slapping Google on the wrist with a $125m fine. "oh no, an amount we can make back in about an hour, whatever shall we do!"
replies(1): >>gruez+Qs1
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13. functi+h61[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-07 23:45:31
>>ec1096+Wt
I'm done with Hanlon and his Razor. It's useless.

I now use Hanlon's Shaving Brush. Its a broad brush that I use to paint every sketchy move businesses make. "Is it malice? Or is it incompetence that merely looks like malice?". I don't care! I'll assume malice unless otherwise shown.

It's not my job to try and find out how evil shit was done accidentally. It doesn't matter if they "oopsied" into selling a firehose of my data to a "trusted partner" to analyze to death. Nobody actually gives a shit at these companies, so I need to treat them all as if they're malicious. If the underlying cause was a bit of incompetence a few years ago, that does nothing for me when I'm discovering the fuckery.

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14. ranger+bo1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-08 02:08:49
>>ec1096+Wt
Way over quoted, and it didn't represent the incentives companies have to screw over their own customers in the pursuit of profits.

Maybe it's both: malice to kick off the effort and incompetence because they got found out.

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15. gruez+Qs1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-08 02:48:06
>>TheRea+Z31
>Like slapping Google on the wrist with a $125m fine. "oh no, an amount we can make back in about an hour, whatever shall we do!"

If the specific misconduct they got caught for netted them $x, and they got fined for $5x, who cares how much % of their global revenue is? That specific crime was still a net negative for them. I'm not sure why conglomerates should be punished more harshly just because they have more revenue overall.

replies(2): >>disgru+UZ1 >>TheRea+Y23
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16. disgru+UZ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-08 08:06:55
>>gruez+Qs1
I get where you're coming from, but corporations should be fined massively for bad behavior to act as a deterrent.

Personally I think that C levels should automatically be disbarred if the corporation is found guilty of criminality as that puts responsibility on the people with the power to prevent it.

replies(1): >>jackpt+ot3
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17. jwie+bt2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-08 12:10:25
>>ec1096+Wt
There are two aspects to that saying.

The word adequately, and the fact it was made when presuming good faith was more reasonable.

These days it's better to assume everything is theft, fraud, or marketing.

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18. denton+nL2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-08 13:45:45
>>gjsman+QH
I'd have thought stabbing someone with an axe would require extreme competence.
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19. TheRea+Y23[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-08 15:00:17
>>gruez+Qs1
There are no crimes being committed, they've not been taken to court, judge against the US criminal code, and found guilty, after which the punitive damages are what they get fined. They merely violated the law, and were fined over that. The entire amount charged was the fine.

As for "who cares about %": every one who understands that fines that cost a company nothing, do nothing, all they say is "it'll cost you a trivial amount more to do this", turning what should be an instrument to rein in companies into simple monetary transaction that just goes on the books as an entirely expected and affordable expense.

It should be a crime, and they should have been found guilty in court over that, and the fine should be such that no matter your company's size, you can't risk running afoul of the law repeatedly. But it absolutely isn't.

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20. jackpt+ot3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-08 16:32:27
>>disgru+UZ1
The issue that government has is that if they’re too harsh the companies move a lot of employment/operations out of their country.
replies(1): >>TheRea+cL4
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21. ec1096+YH3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-08 17:23:47
>>hypeit+JN
I think as a rhetorical device it's good. Which is more likely: 1) Company has actively decided to burn all good will by being evil (we will use your private meeting content to train our ai without any way to opt out) 2) Company is dumb in their terms of service

The HN commenters tend to assume #1 when it comes to big companies, while more likely it's #2. The razors capture this situation well.

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22. checky+dX3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-08 18:29:54
>>ec1096+Wt
Never ascribe to a hasty overgeneralisation that which is adequately explainable by observation and evidence.

I think attributing everything to incompetence vastly underrepresents intent. Maybe not all bad acts are malice, but too many are attributed to incompetence. Maybe it is not malice, but it can still be intentional actions against or indifferent to your interests.

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23. TheRea+cL4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-08-08 22:55:07
>>jackpt+ot3
Good. If you cannot afford the price of doing business illegally, close up shop or leave. And then you will be charged as foreign company when you try to sneak your way back into doing business in the country you left with the much more fun threat of being declared illegal and your products and/or services pulled from the market.

While you thought you presented an argument against hefty fines, you actually gave the perfect reason for why they should be hefty. If illegal practices are affordable, they're not illegal. They're just the price of doing business. So make them hurt.

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