zlacker

[parent] [thread] 98 comments
1. nfried+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-07-26 11:08:04
I hate to say it, but if you used Chrome to read this, then you're part of the problem.

Awful stuff like this wouldn't stand a chance if Google didn't have such a near-monopoly position.

For the sake of the open internet, please switch to a different browser. IMO, Firefox is best*, but even something chromium based is probably fine. Just not Google Chrome.

* On desktop - Firefox is a bit weaker on Android, with an extemely limited set of extensions (but still better than Chrome with no extensions) and just a Safari wrapper on iOS, with no extensions. (But sync works everywhere!)

(I posted something similar in a different thread recently but I think it bears repeating.)

replies(17): >>joelth+G1 >>gaudat+T1 >>edg500+f2 >>Kutsuy+w2 >>scroll+D2 >>cft+M2 >>8organ+Z2 >>linza+l3 >>RajT88+M3 >>bradle+V3 >>Modern+54 >>chippi+X4 >>suyash+l6 >>signa1+77 >>bob102+db >>southe+3c >>throwa+Gd
2. joelth+G1[view] [source] 2023-07-26 11:17:42
>>nfried+(OP)
You can actually use more extensions on Android. It's just more involved than it should be. The trick is to create an "extension collection" from your Mozilla account. Then you can use any extension, and a lot of them just work.
replies(2): >>pmontr+24 >>nfried+b6
3. gaudat+T1[view] [source] 2023-07-26 11:19:12
>>nfried+(OP)
>Firefox is a bit weaker on Android, with an extemely limited set of extensions

Definitely not with the Iceweasel fork. https://github.com/fork-maintainers/fenix

replies(2): >>nfried+O3 >>taneq+yf
4. edg500+f2[view] [source] 2023-07-26 11:21:17
>>nfried+(OP)
I agree, I use Firefox everywhere. But we must not forget the following:

In 2011 Mozilla income was 85% derrived from Google, through the primary search engine deal. Around a billion was paid over three years as part of this deal at some point. Appearantly there was bidding by Microsoft for making Bing the default, which pushed up the pricing.

So every time Mozilla speaks out against Google, it is a bit awkward, since they are biting the hand that feeds them. I suppose they could take a deal from Microsoft, Yahoo or even DDG (or Baidu!), but without interest from Google I presume the funding would be lower. Quite an interesting situation. Thank God both Firefox and Chrome are open source. That is at least some small degree of insurance against potential freedom-limiting shenanigans by tech giants.

replies(7): >>eptcyk+Z3 >>nfried+i4 >>anonco+55 >>kibwen+V5 >>c0l0+X5 >>mozbal+t7 >>voytec+3a
5. Kutsuy+w2[view] [source] 2023-07-26 11:22:28
>>nfried+(OP)
People need to be more aware about this. I also use Firefox on the desktop. On Android I use Mull, which is based upon Firefox and it's actually pretty good!
6. scroll+D2[view] [source] 2023-07-26 11:23:07
>>nfried+(OP)
> I hate to say it, but if you used Chrome to read this, then you're part of the problem.

Victim blaming BS.

Let's see who else is the problem. How about all those engineers who decided not to contribute to Firefox? Or all those website developers who didn't test their site in Firefox? Or hell, why not all those Mozilla engineers who didn't fix Firefox hard enough?

Let's put the blame where it actually is. Google is to blame. Not the users of their free products they advertise all over the place and have an unlimited marketing budget for.

replies(3): >>vultou+H3 >>endomi+I3 >>aziazi+z5
7. cft+M2[view] [source] 2023-07-26 11:24:12
>>nfried+(OP)
I use Edge. I think Edge is a realistically viable competitor, especially with Bing chat sidebar. It's also faster than Safari on MacOS
replies(5): >>slondr+14 >>jacque+64 >>dillyd+c4 >>mozbal+W8 >>NoGrav+Wl
8. 8organ+Z2[view] [source] 2023-07-26 11:25:36
>>nfried+(OP)
Even if you don't care about all that, Firefox is the faster browser.

>>36770883

replies(2): >>0l+q3 >>somehn+S4
9. linza+l3[view] [source] 2023-07-26 11:27:20
>>nfried+(OP)
I'm honestly (as in putting in multiple hours) trying to switch to Firefox every 4 to 5 months. I tried at least 4 times. I do the dance of migrating bookmarks, passwords, layout preferences, add-ons, workflows, setting up sync, installing on all Android and desktop devices ... and then i run into issues, try to fix some of them, research, then give up and go back to chrome and don't think about it anymore until another article like this pops up on HN.

This time I won't be shamed into doing it again. I don't have the time or motivation.

edit: forgot to mention explicitly, it's not Firefox, it's me. I'm not strong enough.

replies(2): >>notpus+X3 >>ruszki+H4
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10. 0l+q3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:27:49
>>8organ+Z2
On a very niche set of tests, sure.
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11. vultou+H3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:29:22
>>scroll+D2
Victim blaming is absolutely the correct approach here. Of course you shouldn't blame your grandma for using Chrome, but people on HN are a completely different audience. HN readers should be well aware of the damage Google is causing to the open internet, using Chrome is tantamount to supporting this effort.
replies(1): >>cmilto+m5
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12. endomi+I3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:29:25
>>scroll+D2
Firstly, the examples you gave are dissimilar; GP is pointing out a positive action (choosing a specific browser) while you're emphasizing negative ones (not doing specific things to contribute to Firefox). Secondly, they did not say that the user is to blame for the situation, merely that they are part of the problem, which is trivially true; Google would not be able to do what they are without a large number of people choosing their browser. Thirdly, the way to effect change through fora like this one is to identify what an audience, personally, can do and encouraging them to do that thing. People can choose what browser they use. They cannot meaningfully change Google's behavior.
replies(1): >>scroll+Kg
13. RajT88+M3[view] [source] 2023-07-26 11:29:42
>>nfried+(OP)
I used Brave. But I am considering a switch to the new DuckDuckGo browser, which I assume is just another Chromium browser.
replies(1): >>nfried+sU
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14. nfried+O3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:29:55
>>gaudat+T1
Yeah, I'm actually using Iceraven right now, I just didn't want to muddy up the point of that comment any further than I already had. Firefox is an easy recommendation on desktop but mobile needs a bit more nuance.

The point is that using anything that's not Google Chrome is better for the internet.

15. bradle+V3[view] [source] 2023-07-26 11:30:51
>>nfried+(OP)
Web standards are a part of the problem that few people think about. Existing rendering engines grew along with the standards. However, the standards (especially CSS) have become so absurdly complex that implementing a new engine would be nearly impossible. Even Microsoft caved, and Edge is now essentially Chrome.

Some will point out that Chrome is based on open-source software. In reality, however, Google has a huge amount of power here. If Google is serious about this initiative, they will try to force it into the projects, and make it an essential part of the web experience. As others have pointed out, Google is also a primary supporter of Firefox, so they have influence there as well.

replies(1): >>bell-c+R9
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16. notpus+X3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:30:59
>>linza+l3
Can you elaborate on the issues you're running into with Firefox? Hopefully we can help you sort these out!
replies(1): >>linza+G64
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17. eptcyk+Z3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:31:12
>>edg500+f2
Yet the development of the browser is seeing a smaller fraction of that income than most people believe.
replies(2): >>tjoff+A7 >>asadot+nw1
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18. slondr+14[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:32:04
>>cft+M2
Edge is just chromium. It is not a competitor.
replies(1): >>mrweas+e6
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19. pmontr+24[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:32:06
>>joelth+G1
I know but it never worked for me. I followed the procedure twice, two different years, two different installs. I'm always doing something wrong. On Mozilla's side, why are they even doing that to us on Nightly?
replies(1): >>jeroen+A5
20. Modern+54[view] [source] 2023-07-26 11:32:18
>>nfried+(OP)
Does Opera count? It uses Chromium.
replies(2): >>PrimeM+J7 >>nfried+UU
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21. jacque+64[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:32:19
>>cft+M2
That's just exchanging one demon on your shoulder for another.
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22. dillyd+c4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:32:51
>>cft+M2
I think the person you are responding to would say that edge is just another chromium skin. It doesn't exactly relieve Google's monopoly on browser technology
replies(2): >>paprua+l5 >>CatWCh+nmh
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23. nfried+i4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:33:23
>>edg500+f2
Yeah, I mentioned this in another comment: it's really a shame that Mozilla spends the majority of that money (often poorly IMO), instead of putting it into an endowment fund or something similar that would leave them in a much better position for the long run.
replies(1): >>asadot+Cv1
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24. ruszki+H4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:36:10
>>linza+l3
What are these issues?
replies(1): >>sgc+47
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25. somehn+S4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:36:47
>>8organ+Z2
Chrome feels faster though. I just switched back to it after using Firefox for the last year. Chrome on my work computer felt snappier than Firefox on my comparable spec personal machine.
replies(2): >>jeltz+d7 >>8organ+Lq
26. chippi+X4[view] [source] 2023-07-26 11:37:12
>>nfried+(OP)
100% agree.

I switched to Chrome pretty much the day it first came out and it was revolutionary. Switched back to Firefox a few years ago due to Chrome becoming too dominant and Google throwing their weight around in standards committees too much. When I desperately need Chromium for something I use Edge (which I actually rather like).

replies(1): >>alfied+K7
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27. anonco+55[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:38:01
>>edg500+f2
Chromium is open source. Is Chrome completely open source?
replies(1): >>rvnx+f5
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28. rvnx+f5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:39:03
>>anonco+55
Almost all in Chromium is open-source, there are some missing pieces though.

For example, the per-device configuration (GPU acceleration enabled or not, etc) is not there, the statistics collection infrastructure, the WebAPK minting code is not there, etc.

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29. paprua+l5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:39:30
>>dillyd+c4
It should fairly simple for MS to block this API (if they wish to).
replies(2): >>Moldot+S6 >>adrian+h7
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30. cmilto+m5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:39:39
>>vultou+H3
What should HN readers do that are forced to work within these ecosystems? Ex. Work, school.

It’s not always so easy to walk away from an entire platform. People’s entire livelihoods could be based around Google.

I don’t see any issue with Google owning some of this responsibility.

replies(2): >>nequo+o7 >>lukas0+LV
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31. aziazi+z5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:40:25
>>scroll+D2
> an unlimited marketing budget for.

I never seen a single chrome add. I'm sure we're in different part of the world and in different add segments, but seems to me chrome marketing in not that widespread, is it ?

As a retired FE engineer, the top reason I used chrome and test with it was the powerful yet light devtools.

replies(2): >>skydha+P6 >>gettod+ca
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32. jeroen+A5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:40:43
>>pmontr+24
It works for me on the Beta. No need to go to nightly. Mozilla was even gracious enough to allow us to go to about:config!

I don't know what you're doing wrong (all I can say is that the name of the collection is case sensitive) but I haven't had any trouble adding the custom collection settings to my Firefox installs.

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33. kibwen+V5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:43:17
>>edg500+f2
> That is at least some small degree of insurance against potential freedom-limiting shenanigans by tech giants.

Chromium being open source is a red herring. The web is a protocol between clients and servers, and having the ability to fork the client doesn't matter if all the servers ignore your fork and continue speaking the protocol dictated by the dominant client. You need to fork the entire protocol, which is to say, you need to fork the entire web.

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34. c0l0+X5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:43:29
>>edg500+f2
Perfect is the enemy of good. If you postpone or skip using Firefox because of this reason/excuse, you are even more a part of the problem than you probably realize ;)

Mozilla's opposition to such initiatives matters only because of their users. And there are no other significant fighters in this ring on _our_ side, unfortunately.

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35. nfried+b6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:44:48
>>joelth+G1
Yeah, I know - I ended up switching to Iceraven on my phone, though. I've heard good things about Mull too. But I didn't want to muddy the original post with all that.
replies(1): >>joelth+Ia
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36. mrweas+e6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:44:57
>>slondr+14
With few exceptions the browser market is a lot like the Volkswagen Group. They design key components and depending on market segment they slap a Audi, VW or Skoda label on it, do a few tweaks to the look and feel and add a few features that they know that a particular segment wants. Under "chrome" it's a Volkswagen.
37. suyash+l6[view] [source] 2023-07-26 11:45:42
>>nfried+(OP)
If you're using Apple products, your first preference should be Safari. I use that all the time, it's faster, leaner and syncs tabs/history/bookmarks greatly between different Apple devices.
replies(4): >>hospit+Z7 >>jvolkm+Ua >>aldano+Xj >>nfried+kv
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38. skydha+P6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:48:34
>>aziazi+z5
There was a campaign on Twitch not long ago. Also, I watch F1 and they have a really premium position on the McLaren cars.
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39. Moldot+S6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:48:42
>>paprua+l5
depends how the api is designed. If it'll be integrated deep into chromium, disabling it would cost too much time
replies(1): >>notpus+a8
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40. sgc+47[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:49:23
>>ruszki+H4
I am very curious as well.

I have zero issues using FF everywhere. I used to have to use Chromium every couple months because some dumb website was pulling in a library that was using some non-industry-standard thing chromium did - and everything broke due to their utter lack of testing - but even that has died down. There is a newer trend where I have to disable uBlock every once in a while to complete a task, which is just as bad, but I rarely have to actually use another browser.

41. signa1+77[view] [source] 2023-07-26 11:49:29
>>nfried+(OP)
> I hate to say it, but if you used Chrome to read this, then you're part of the problem.

not sure how far using 'ungoogled-chromium' takes you though.

replies(1): >>nfried+hV
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42. jeltz+d7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:49:44
>>somehn+S4
Have you tried disabling smooth scrolling?
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43. adrian+h7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:50:16
>>paprua+l5
Why would they? They make money with ads too
replies(1): >>paprua+JD
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44. nequo+o7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:50:47
>>cmilto+m5
Google is a monopolist that acts like a monopolist. Its main revenue source is advertising. So it will use its monopoly power to secure advertising.

You cannot expect Google to act against its own self-interest only because you ask nicely. You have to stop giving them the market power to do it.

replies(1): >>cmilto+sa
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45. mozbal+t7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:51:02
>>edg500+f2
Mozilla should really double down on Mozilla VPN. Judging by all the NordVPN ads on every major youtuber's video, the profit margins must be astronomical (or their business model must be suspicious). It should provide a good income stream for Mozilla. The entire space is shady and filled with dubious actors. It is just begging to be disrupted by a trustworthy organization.

I can't think of a single candidate other than Mozilla that has the technical expertise, experience, trust, reputation, resources (not to mention non-profit structure) built over 20 years defending the open web. I don't understand why Mozilla is dragging their feet on this. They should have owned the entire VPN market by now. VPNs aren't cryogenic rockets.

replies(3): >>deadbu+k9 >>gettod+M9 >>dynamo+rj
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46. tjoff+A7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:51:30
>>eptcyk+Z3
Then let's make the situation even worse until it resolves itself.
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47. PrimeM+J7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:52:38
>>Modern+54
No. Chromium browsers may as well be Chrome for the purposes of this discussion.
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48. alfied+K7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:52:43
>>chippi+X4
The problem with Mozilla Corporation/Foundation is that they blew all their time/money/resources/lead on things that didn't matter, not helping pave the way forward, and then fired a lot of their staff to boot!

Mozilla was once a bright shinning beacon of hope for the open web, but they wasted their good will on too many of us, and it pains me to think what could have been.

replies(1): >>baq+B8
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49. hospit+Z7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:53:55
>>suyash+l6
Why not Firefox?
replies(2): >>NoGrav+Ve >>Terret+dk
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50. notpus+a8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:55:25
>>Moldot+S6
I don't think so. Even if it's impossible to exclude it from the builds, they can just remove it from the JavaScript global scope or something.
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51. baq+B8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:57:57
>>alfied+K7
Good will is nice but those people also need to eat and mozzilla really needed to find a revenue stream other than google paying them off so they don’t have to spend 100x the amount on antitrust litigations.

This is a perfect case in which I’d like to see my taxes funding their work.

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52. mozbal+W8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 11:59:53
>>cft+M2
Microsoft is exactly the kind of company that would throw its full backing behind this google proposal, seeing how they have spent the last 20 years working towards the same goal. See Windows 11, Trusted Platform Module, Pluton, Palladium, SecureBoot.
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53. deadbu+k9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 12:03:27
>>mozbal+t7
Don't Mozilla just resell Mulvad?
replies(1): >>mozbal+Wb
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54. gettod+M9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 12:06:06
>>mozbal+t7
VPNs are barely gonna make a dent in their income. What do you think the market is for VPNs? 99% of people don't know what VPN means.

Of the remaining 1%, most don't need a VPN for anything personal. It's literally just a handful of geeks who need VPN (mainly for secure piracy, or accessing different regional Netflix catalogs), and maybe a few dozen journalists living in dictatorships.

Mozilla needs to gut spending. Get rid of all the diversity /hr/evangelism people bloating their employee headcount and funneling people's donations to divisive causes like that org that doesn't hire white men (forgot the name but it made me cancel my monthly donation to Mozilla). They shouldn't need more than 25% non-technical staff, and the purpose of those 25% should be exclusively to support the technical staff. Instead they became another bloated Big NGO that's basically welfare for liberal arts majors in California.

replies(2): >>codedo+0b >>mozbal+yc
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55. bell-c+R9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 12:06:25
>>bradle+V3
THIS...except "a part of the problem" is miserably understated.

Extreme technological complexity is just about the best possible moat a huge business can have. Though in this case "walls around the prison in which the users are incarcerated" might be a better analogy.

And all the prisoners, who just can't resist the endless shiny new goodies added to the web standards, are forever building their own prison walls higher...

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56. voytec+3a[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 12:08:29
>>edg500+f2
> every time Mozilla speaks out against Google, it is a bit awkward, since they are biting the hand that feeds them.

Not at all. Controlled opposition has to pretend being an opposition.

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57. gettod+ca[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 12:09:36
>>aziazi+z5
>I never seen a single chrome add

Try browsing Google from a browser other than Chrome.

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58. cmilto+sa[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 12:11:19
>>nequo+o7
Have they won the game of capitalism by becoming a monopoly?

I don’t expect Google to act against its own will, but they should.

replies(1): >>nequo+MB
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59. joelth+Ia[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 12:13:02
>>nfried+b6
Your post was perfect. We need to get people off Chrome, and ideally off Chromium-based browsers. It doesn't matter which.
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60. jvolkm+Ua[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 12:14:07
>>suyash+l6
Apple products already support attestation, as was discussed yesterday.

https://httptoolkit.com/blog/apple-private-access-tokens-att...

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61. codedo+0b[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 12:14:58
>>gettod+M9
VPN is not only for geeks. VPNs (free ones) are popular in Russia because Instagram is blocked.
replies(1): >>throw-+Dn
62. bob102+db[view] [source] 2023-07-26 12:16:47
>>nfried+(OP)
What does HN think about Mozilla adding some premium tier of the browser itself for a small subscription fee? I already subscribe to MDN out of sheer principle, and would be OK substituting some bullshit like Hulu if it would help even more... I am willing to pay the true cost of the "open" web, whatever it is. Just tell me how much and where to sign.

Money is going to be a required tool to fight back against google, whether we like it or not. Capitalizing on the lesser evil to fight the bigger evil is not a terrible idea in my estimation.

replies(1): >>nfried+JW
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63. mozbal+Wb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 12:21:14
>>deadbu+k9
Yes. I don't know why though. I don't understand why they can't host and run their own OpenVPN instance. Or why MozillaVPN is only available in 30 countries (mine not included), 4 years after announcement. Or why i haven't seen a single ad for Mozilla VPN anywhere on the web other than in mozilla's homepage. Or what they are doing with their 800 million dollars in annual revenue.
64. southe+3c[view] [source] 2023-07-26 12:21:46
>>nfried+(OP)
I would love to use Firefox, if it wasn't so persistently such an utterly slow piece of shit if you open more than a few tabs or use it much. Across every laptop I've ever owned and across every version of FF I've ever used, this has been the case despite all promises. So unless i'm haunted by some magical digital browser curse, Chrome at least performs rapidly, even for a tab hoarder like me. I barely use anything by Google knowingly, but with Chrome Firefox can fuck off in comparison if it can't simply perform at the basics of agile functionality.
replies(2): >>raxxor+au >>kibibu+Tx
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65. mozbal+yc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 12:24:39
>>gettod+M9
If there is little money in VPNs, how is it that they are funding half the youtubers out there, potentially outbidding everyone else for the adspace.
66. throwa+Gd[view] [source] 2023-07-26 12:31:18
>>nfried+(OP)
Kiwi browser for android supports chrome extensions. The chrome web store is horrible to navigate on mobile though.
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67. NoGrav+Ve[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 12:37:00
>>hospit+Z7
I'm not an Apple user, but from what I've heard, battery usage is the main reason to prefer Safari to Firefox on MacOS.
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68. taneq+yf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 12:39:42
>>gaudat+T1
Is that the one that harangues you any time you load a page with non-GPL'd JavaScript on it? Because that was incredibly annoying.
replies(1): >>nfried+xN
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69. scroll+Kg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 12:46:02
>>endomi+I3
> choosing a specific browser

Most people "choose" a specific browser like I "choose" my landlord when I move in to a new place. It's what's there.

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70. dynamo+rj[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 12:59:16
>>mozbal+t7
Is the Mozilla organization generally responsive to social media? I have had a hard time trying to figure out where the organization responds to publicly, generally.

I would love to have a Mozilla hosted email and calendar service from them, for example. I don't understand why they aren't branching out into more common web citizen needed services.

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71. aldano+Xj[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:01:00
>>suyash+l6
On desktop macs, there's strong reasons to use Firefox for many power users
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72. Terret+dk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:02:13
>>hospit+Z7
A few reasons:

1. Native integration across devices: Safari integrates seamlessly with Apple's ecosystem due to proprietary features like iCloud, Handoff, and universal clipboard, allowing for a consistent user experience across all Apple devices, with seamless transition among them to stay in your flow across devices.

2. iCloud Private Relay: This is a recent security tool from Apple and participating CDNs that encrypts all Safari traffic and protects the user's privacy by preventing anyone, including both Apple and network providers, from seeing which sites are visited.

3. Password Management Integration: Safari offers seamless integration with Apple’s Keychain for password and two-factor authentication (2FA) management across devices and across apps and browsers. Safari leverages Apple's OS level full password manager that's been quietly iterated each major release, now including support for TOTP and compromised-site checks.

4. Increased security/privacy: Safari uses AI/ML backed Intelligent Tracking Prevention to identify and block trackers, ensuring enhanced user privacy. While similar features can be added to Firefox via extensions, Safari has these capabilities by default.

5. Improved Power Efficiency and Performance: Multiple battery life tests confirm that Safari is significantly more power-efficient than Firefox and Chrome. Apple pulls this off through co-optimization of hardware and software, power-efficient technologies, hardware acceleration, conservative use of resources, efficient resource handling, and the blocking of resource-heavy ads and trackers. In real world use, you may see twice the battery life during web heavy usage.

6. Extended Support for WebKit: Use the browser your users use, so you understand and support their experience.

Other factors like persistent tab groups, 120hz scroll performance, and first class "retina" typography simply add to the smooth experience Safari provides on macOS and iOS.

Here are some lesser known tips for tuning up Safari to your liking and using features folks may be less familiar with:

https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/hidden-tricks-inside-apples-saf...

replies(1): >>hospit+sy
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73. NoGrav+Wl[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:10:07
>>cft+M2
Not only is Edge based on Chromium, as a major operating system vendor with strong influence on the hardware market, Microsoft is well positioned to be one of the widely-accepted attesters. So they have little motivation to oppose this proposal.
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74. throw-+Dn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:18:04
>>codedo+0b
But, conveniently, Russians cannot use paid VPNs anyway unless they accept Bitcoin.
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75. 8organ+Lq[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:30:03
>>somehn+S4
My concern is that soon the comparison will be "Chrome without ad block" vs "Firefox with ad block". There's no way Chrome outperforms Firefox in that scenario. Even if Chrome is faster for your unique workflow today, prepare to switch back.
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76. raxxor+au[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:43:27
>>southe+3c
This has never been the case for me at all. I write this comment in Chrome because I have it for testing and specific purposes, but I believe CPU and memory utilization advantages of Chromium always have been a myth for the most part. And I am someone that holds a lot of tabs open without rebooting my work machine for days or months.

Browsers are still memory hogs, but at some point you have to decide if you want speed or low memory usage. Fast reaction time or nicely rendered pictures. On a decent machine, not even a fast one, there is no difference. That said, I despise notebooks and usually use towers.

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77. nfried+kv[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:47:33
>>suyash+l6
I use Apple devices for work, but a combination of Windows, Linux, and Android for personal use, and I like that Firefox can sync between all of them.

I will concede that if you're all-in on Apple, then Safari is certainly more convenient. It's also more power efficient on macOS, so if I know I'm going to be on battery all day, I may switch to Safari for the day.

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78. kibibu+Tx[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:58:01
>>southe+3c
Microsoft's Defender was, until recently, drastically slowing down Firefox on many configurations.
replies(1): >>southe+YA7
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79. hospit+sy[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 13:59:49
>>Terret+dk
All but #4 make sense.

Apple has a pretty terrible record on security given the Pegasus spyware and 0 clicks. Although most are related to iMessage and hardware exploits.

I still have a hard time believing the Privacy stuff since PRISM and Apple's openness to give data to China and Russia. But if you believe them, don't mind the government's access, and don't want to use other software, I can see where you are coming from.

replies(1): >>Terret+ge3
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80. nequo+MB[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:12:31
>>cmilto+sa
I don’t know if they won the game of capitalism but their market power and profit incentive are facts.

If you don’t want to stop using Chrome, then your alternative is to buy a controlling share of Alphabet and appoint a Board that forgoes advertising revenue in exchange for being nice to adblock users.

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81. paprua+JD[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:19:30
>>adrian+h7
But Googles makes way more, will make compete with Google even harder in the future (deeper pockets).
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82. nfried+xN[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 14:58:04
>>taneq+yf
Nope, I've never seen that. Iceraven is just Firefox for Android with more extensions enabled, about:config support, and a couple of other minor annoyances fixed.
replies(1): >>taneq+RH4
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83. nfried+sU[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 15:20:03
>>RajT88+M3
If I remember right, DuckDuckGo's browser just uses the system webview. So that might be Chromium on Windows now that Edge is Chromium-based, but it'd be WebKit on macOS, and I'm not sure what it'd use on Linux.
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84. nfried+UU[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 15:21:11
>>Modern+54
I'd say it's better than using Google Chrome.
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85. nfried+hV[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 15:22:15
>>signa1+77
I'd say it's certainly better than using Google Chrome.
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86. lukas0+LV[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 15:24:02
>>cmilto+m5
I don't think they were talking about people who are forced to use chrome.
replies(1): >>mcpack+n21
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87. nfried+JW[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 15:27:23
>>bob102+db
I just donate to the Mozilla Foundation each month: https://donate.mozilla.org/en-US/

I feel like they could do better, but on the whole, I'm happy with what they provide to everyone for free.

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88. mcpack+n21[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 15:46:11
>>lukas0+LV
Yes, the worst are the techies who should know better but insist on using chrome because "it feels slightly faster, therefore I have no choice but to use it." Such people pretending to be victims is complete nonsense.
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89. asadot+Cv1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 17:31:09
>>nfried+i4
It actually takes a lot of people to build and maintain a modern competitive browser. Not paying those people and instead investing the revenue would end the project in short order. Mozilla is already outgunned on staff by the other major browser makers and you want us to cut staff to save more? That's not realistic, IMO.
replies(1): >>nfried+RH1
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90. asadot+nw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 17:33:25
>>eptcyk+Z3
Not really. Firefox is a large majority of Mozilla and Mozilla's spending. Feel free to read over our financial statements to confirm this.
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91. nfried+RH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 18:11:22
>>asadot+Cv1
I don't disagree with you, but Mozilla takes in hundreds of millions of dollars a year and I don't think they spend all of that on Firefox - possibly not even the majority of it!

I think that if they cut back on some of the other projects in the short-term, they could ensure the foundation was funded for the long-term - to support Firefox and anything else they deem valuable.

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92. Terret+ge3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 02:23:57
>>hospit+sy
So here's the thing. Apple's moves on #4 moved adtech stock prices down.

You don't need to believe me, info on the authenticity of their effort is priced into the markets.

Or, you can believe those lined up to fight Apple on these capabilities.

This is really outdated: https://images.apple.com/safari/docs/Safari_White_Paper_Nov_...

But boy did it get Meta mad:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/09/facebook-warns-about-apple-i...

But they did more:

https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/06/07/apple-beefing-up-...

And now more:

https://www.tomsguide.com/news/ios-17-will-stop-websites-fro...

Every time generating letters to Washington and Brussels how Apple's taking food out of the mouths of data and ad brokers.

I'd have run out of tiny violins if I didn't have GarageBand to make me a loop.

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93. linza+G64[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 10:26:10
>>notpus+X3
I find that condescending but I'm sure you didn't mean it that way and had good intentions asking that.

The problems I experienced that can be fixed in Firefox itself probably already got fixed.

My (personal) problem with Firefox is that functionally it's not Chrome and doesn't look/feel like it. The claimed non-functional improvements (privacy, freedom, ...) DON'T make up for the difference for me personally.

If Firefox looked and felt more or less exactly like Chrome for the functional parts then I would not have any problem switching for good. It's not at the moment, so this is what stops me from adoption.

I don't propose to change anything (you did). I was merely stating why I'm not on Firefox yet as a data point.

replies(1): >>notpus+Zl4
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94. notpus+Zl4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 12:30:12
>>linza+G64
Absolutely not intended to sound condescending, sorry if that came across that way.

I see your point and it is absolutely within your right to stay on Chrome if you don't want to change. I've found it pretty much identical in terms of functionality and UX for the past decade though. Do you have any particular functional improvements in mind that you're missing in Firefox?

replies(1): >>linza+xk7
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95. taneq+RH4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 14:09:00
>>nfried+xN
Wait, the post says iceweasel but the link is iceraven, are they the same thing? This was on the default browser one of the times I tried LineageOS, this was back in 2019 or so. I could be misremembering the specific fork.
replies(1): >>nfried+BP4
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96. nfried+BP4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 14:37:20
>>taneq+RH4
I found this about iceweasel, which inclines me to believe that you remembered it correctly, and the grandparent was just mistaken about the name:

> In August 2005,[11] the GNUzilla project adopted the GNU IceWeasel name for a rebranded distribution of Firefox that made no references to nonfree plugins.

> [...]

> The GNU LibreJS extension detects and blocks non-free non-trivial JavaScript.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_IceCat

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97. linza+xk7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-28 07:12:44
>>notpus+Zl4
As an example: https://ibb.co/Wynn5Tg Subjectively(!) Firefox is cluttered and takes much more space than Chrome for itself. Unfocused tabs are hard for me to make out on Firefox.

I think that personally I'm a lost cause. Either give me Firefox in a Chrome's pelt or I stay with Chrome. And maybe that's good this way: Firefox should just focus on new users and make the best browser for "them".

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98. southe+YA7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-28 10:13:30
>>kibibu+Tx
I'll look into that on my laptop and see if it may just possibly have been a major cause of problems all this time. I'm skeptical, but thanks for the tip.
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99. CatWCh+nmh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-31 13:51:11
>>dillyd+c4
another chromium skin with extra tracking. I believe Edge tracks by hardware ID more aggressively than Chrome or chromium.
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