zlacker

At least once have I done a CC blast as a form of insurance when being asked to do something absolutely boneheaded.

>>Waterl+(OP)
You gotta get executives in writing sometimes or they'll throw you under the bus later.

>>7thacc+H4
If executives are throwing you under a bus, make an exit. There’s no coming back from a clown show like that.

>>Waterl+M5
I have a general rule that I make proactive, diligent efforts to inform and correct, and I do it 3 times to 3 different groups in leadership, and if that doesn't work, I'm out.

I'm about 2 for 8 but you gotta try sometimes.

>>jagged+5c
Yeah more often than not people just really really want to touch the hot stove.

Being the bearer of bad “stoves are hot to the touch” news makes you a downer.

>>steveB+Wd
And in some absolutely bizarre anti-logic, I’ve seen some decide that the person trying to warn is somehow responsible for the inevitable outcome.

Not enough of you believed and now this balloon is adrift and will never make it to Imaginationland.

>>7thacc+H4
From previous stories about Elon, telling him he’s wrong is a guarantee you’re going under that bus.

>>Waterl+me
Schrödinger's logic. If only they'd kept their mouths shut.

>>Liquid+8h
Every person in power is told he's wrong every day, all day, by most everyone.

Heck, I've hired people to teach me things, told them they were wrong, and learned the hard way, many times.

>>Walter+Tj
>Every person in power is told he's wrong every day, all day, by most everyone.

Not those who just punish anyone who dares. Then they're just not told anything but "yes, sir" until disaster strikes.

>>Liquid+ql
Not in Musk’s defense, I guess there are enough signs that his posture is authoritarian and therefore bound to end up with yes-men, but people in power also sometimes are willing to listen in the proper context. I.e. as long as it is in private or in a trusted forum, where being the Cassandra does not link the warning with their leadership. Of course the really powerful will also react to potentially uncomfortable feedback in a proper forum or in person, rather than in public.

>>Waterl+me
> I’ve seen some decide that the person trying to warn is somehow responsible for the inevitable outcome.

You should have warned me about this more convincingly!

>>Waterl+me
> I’ve seen some decide that the person trying to warn is somehow responsible for the inevitable outcome.

All. the. time...

Pervasive cognitive glitch: inability to distinguish between _problems_ and _people_.

Identifying the problem ==> causing the problem.

>>7thacc+H4
> or they'll throw you under the bus

and they'll throw you under the bus

>>jagged+5c
You don't happen to have a blog or something where you outline, even if it's without tons of detail or being too specific, what these incidents looked like, do you? These feel like (hopefully) rare enough events that I'd love to try to learn from other people's experiences before I run into this kind of situation myself.

>>waters+5p
It's simpler than this. You made them look stupid, so they want to get rid of you. Blaming you for the current mess is a start.

>>Aeolun+2o
I worked for a guy whose boss was trying to throw him under the bus constantly. In one scenario after being reminded of something, he said "I don't recall that conversation, you need to put this kind of stuff into email". So in a following scenario where he did send an email, boss man said "I get lots of email, you can't send an email and assume I read it."

This is why I find if you don't already have good relations with management and trust each others judgement, it really doesn't matter.

They will do as they wish, and throw you under the bus as needed.

>>waters+5p
I got tasked with essentially project managing a doomed project that the boss had already made all the tech decisions & promises on. Nothing was built but we had customers with firm dates for go-live. It was clearly not going to work, and not be on time. I pointed some of this out.

He then asked me to do weekly RAG status for stakeholders. So I did and it all slowly turned red with no easy remediation.

He did two things that made me realize it was time to go:

First, when I suggested that "if I report red status all year and then it doesn't complete on time, but I kept everyone well informed - am I going to be rewarded end of year".. to which I got nervous laughter response.

Second, he started talking about "what if we change the definition of done", such that we just start marking things amber/green because like.. well some of it is running in QA or hey its like 70% done, so why not mark it done?

Just seemed like he handed me the keys to a sinking boat as he stepped off in the last life boat.

>>afterb+2u
It's step 2 of the "3 envelopes" method of management.

>>steveB+mv
Talk verbally, and then send an email afterwards with notes. This means that they definitely were informed, because you talked to them, and you have something to point them to if they don't remember, because you send notes.

This is protection in adversarial scenarios, but is also just a great habit In general. Verbal discussion is really good for getting people on the same page, but without notes it's very easy for details and decisions to get lost.

>>jagged+5c
not my circus

did you get copmensation for the 2 times it worked out

>>jefftk+Xw
Yes, but..

If you are in the kind of adversarial management relationship where this is necessary, you have already lost.

Do you think this kind of guy, when you point to "hey remember the conversation, here's the follow-up mail with the meeting notes" he's gonna be like "oh yeah, I was wrong, you are right." ?

It's good to have meeting agendas and follow up minutes, I just rarely find that they are going to help you litigate anything. More to remind you how a decision came to be.

>>Walter+Tj
Then you haven't heard about about Vladimir Putin.

>>Walter+Tj
> Every person in power is told he's wrong every day, all day, by most everyone.

Wait, what? That's a ridiculous assertion, even taken as hyperbole. A huge percentage of people in power surround themselves with "yes-men", and are allergic to (even constructive) criticism, let alone direct disagreement.

>>andbbe+Iz
Of course not :) Preventing disaster earns no kudos

>>jefftk+Xw
Another good way is to take notes live in the meeting — and have the doc shared on screen (for remote) or projected on the wall (for in-person).

That way, it's unavoidably in front of everyone's face, and you get the perk of ironclad timestamps in the document-editing history.

>>qchris+Lt
No, they're not the kind of thing I like to talk about in more than generalities because they paint me in a negative light, even though most of the work I do is more about positive-sum games.

If you ever have a beverage with me or drop me an email I'm happy to discuss without naming names, but public is unwise, sadly.

One of these years I'm going to retire and start a youtube channel. If you like similar stories, ThePrimagen[1] definitely has a similar flavor. He talks about some situations at Netflix that are eerily familiar, even though I've never worked for them.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/c/theprimeagen

>>chrisw+1E
How many people tell Musk he's wrong every day? From reading social media, probably around a million! Heck, just look at the replies to his Twitter posts.

>>Aeolun+2o
I got "You should have been more persuasive!" too once. Hell of a thing to say to someone who you know is ND.

>>Walter+rK
The millions of people on social media are not the one surrounding Musk and having his ear.

Let's say there are a 100 people who actually interact with him in a professional context. Those are the ones that are yes men.

>>Walter+rK
That’s not the same thing at all. The original comment was clearly talking about people who work directly for him, whom he has the power to fire on the spot.

>>Waterl+(OP)
I have usually just produced a disclaimer and asked the relevant party to please read and sign it, indemnifying me against any consequences of the decision they have made.

That usually gets them to sit up and reconsider.

Occasionally they sign the damned thing, and then it’s popcorn “I told you so” time.

>>spirit+nO
That's actually the perfect ironclad management logic BS, lol.

You are wrong because you were right but unable to persuade me. Not "hmm, maybe I should be more receptive to my reports feedback".

>>Walter+Tj
This only happens to good leaders, not all leaders. Bad leaders systematically stop this behaviour through various forms of discouragement.