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[parent] [thread] 16 comments
1. aidenn+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-06-12 21:24:58
In theory, the data was provided willingly when collected.

If you rent a locker, and the terms of the rental agreement say that the person you're renting from has access to the locker for any reason, then the cops do not need a warrant to ask the lessor to open the locker, only a warrant to coerce the lessor to open the locker.

If the lessor is willing to let anybody take a picture of what is in the locker for $5, then the government doing so isn't abusing its special privilege.

In practice, most people do not understand the ramifications of the things they agreed to that put this data out there (if they even read it!) and in many cases did not have reasonable alternatives to the services that they signed up for.

replies(4): >>jacque+U >>nobody+jb >>imiric+4i >>Taylor+jk
2. jacque+U[view] [source] 2023-06-12 21:29:36
>>aidenn+(OP)
In Europe it doesn't work like that. There you give consent to collect for a specific purpose and for any other purpose you need to go back to the source for another round of consent. This is something that many companies haven't implemented properly yet (but a surprisingly large number actually do).
replies(2): >>isaacr+i6 >>darren+pD1
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3. isaacr+i6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-12 21:55:06
>>jacque+U
And in reality, every process is a kafkean bureocratic nightmare were you end up having to say yes in order to advance and they milk your data anyway while also using privacy rethoric to prevent citizens from getting gov transparency.

The typical powerful west European countries are corrupt to the core and when people feel we are better off than in the US (self congratulatory posts are common) it's generally lack of political awareness and involvement more than anything.

replies(1): >>jacque+9a
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4. jacque+9a[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-12 22:13:23
>>isaacr+i6
In reality, it just mostly works. Source: ample experience with European (no idea why you added 'West') companies that deal with my data. Since the GDPR has gone 'live' (as in: fines are being issued for non-compliance) the situation is improving every day.
replies(2): >>chaost+Il1 >>isaacr+8f3
5. nobody+jb[view] [source] 2023-06-12 22:19:28
>>aidenn+(OP)
>In theory, the data was provided willingly when collected.

That's spot on, and your analogy is a good one, except that in the realm of personal information, no warrant is required in the US.

There is quite a bit of law and numerous court decisions around this process in the US.

That jurisprudence is more generally called the Third-Party Doctrine[0]:

   The third-party doctrine is a United States legal doctrine that holds that 
   people who voluntarily give information to third parties—such as banks, phone 
   companies, internet service providers (ISPs), and e-mail servers—have "no 
   reasonable expectation of privacy" in that information. A lack of privacy 
   protection allows the United States government to obtain information from 
   third parties without a legal warrant and without otherwise complying with 
   the Fourth Amendment prohibition against search and seizure without probable 
   cause and a judicial search warrant.[1]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine

Edit: To clarify, I disagree with this doctrine and would love to see limitations on data retention periods as well as warrant requirements for access to such data.

6. imiric+4i[view] [source] 2023-06-12 22:54:47
>>aidenn+(OP)
> In practice, most people do not understand the ramifications of the things they agreed to that put this data out there (if they even read it!)

True, but it's even worse than that. Many of those who do understand it, simply don't care ("nothing to hide", "nothing to fear", etc.).

The allure of a "free" service that everyone else uses is enough to abandon any expectation of privacy, and consciously come up with arguments that it doesn't matter.

7. Taylor+jk[view] [source] 2023-06-12 23:05:28
>>aidenn+(OP)
> In practice, most people do not understand the ramifications of the things they agreed to

Going further, it must be clarified that the whole point of doing things this way is that people do not understand it. The people who want to surveil everyone could either do it illegally and get in trouble, or create an inscrutable bureaucratic system that so sufficiently obscures what they are doing that they get the same results along with a legal cover if they are discovered. If we did have privacy laws that prevented this, they would just collect it illegally. This is absolutely not to say that privacy laws are pointless (they would be helpful) but that we must understand this situation not as an accident, but as the slow creation of a class of people who want to exercise power over us and have been getting their way.

replies(1): >>mistri+LK
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8. mistri+LK[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-13 02:15:45
>>Taylor+jk
Google founders had some internal compass when they offered GMail "free" with an explicit statement that they would "index the emails" or whatever. I recall smart people, a few of them, noting it but the rush happened. Second was smart phones not being too coy about knowing your phone call records with an ID attached to it, every time, all the time. When the public accepted those two things, in recent memory, that was enough to tip IMHO here in the USA. Whatever legal powers behind the scenes with the Patriot Act were contemporaneous, after GMail.
replies(1): >>Taylor+RV
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9. Taylor+RV[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-13 03:47:20
>>mistri+LK
I checked a few dates.

Gmail launched in 2004.

The Patriot act was signed in to law in October 2001.

Bill Binney blew the whistle on illegal NSA mass data collection of email, web browsing, and cell phone records in 2002.

Hard to pinpoint when smartphones became mainstream, though as a point of reference the iPhone was launched in 2007.

So clearly the NSA was trying to do dragnet surveillance of the internet well before gmail or the widespread use of smartphones.

A quote from the Bill Binney wikipedia page: "Binney has also been publicly critical of the NSA for spying on U.S. citizens, saying of its expanded surveillance after the September 11, 2001 attacks that 'it's better than anything that the KGB, the Stasi, or the Gestapo and SS ever had'"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Binney_(intelligence_o...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trailblazer_Project

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10. chaost+Il1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-13 06:59:57
>>jacque+9a
The 14 eyes alliance and legislation in countries like France make the GPRD seem more like protectionist laws that favor local corporations instead of actually protecting the privacy of everyday citizens.
replies(2): >>izacus+OB1 >>jacque+sV2
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11. izacus+OB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-13 09:09:32
>>chaost+Il1
That's because GDPR explicitly isn't meant to be a law that protects against governments but against private entities. There's nothing "protectionist" about that.
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12. darren+pD1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-13 09:23:56
>>jacque+U
Except GDPR is full off "except law enforcement" exceptions
replies(1): >>jacque+5V2
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13. jacque+5V2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-13 16:25:31
>>darren+pD1
Yes, so? Check out the text to see exactly what the context for those exceptions is and it all looks fairly reasonable. It doesn't say 'law enforcement gets to do whatever they please'.
replies(1): >>omnigl+WL7
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14. jacque+sV2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-13 16:26:52
>>chaost+Il1
If anything local corporations are far more at risk of enforcement so your comment makes not sense. Privacy of everyday citizens has measurably improved, both from the perspective of an EU data subject (myself) and someone who professionally looks into the kitchen of many EU companies that process data (myself).
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15. isaacr+8f3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-13 17:46:18
>>jacque+9a
It doesn't. I added west because I've lived in several countries of Europe and I'm talking about those and some other hegemonic ones I know about. The ones usually lauded due to not knowing about them. I'm European.

In this site there's a trend to treat Europe as a monolithic entity and pretend it's awesome. Any criticism gets taken as "Americuns" being ignorant and europe is awesome.

In reality, I see a lot of unwillingness to accept the political reality and pretend "we are better than USA" via political apathy and coping.

People react negatively when you point out polítical facts they don't want to see. It's easier to look at USA with an air of superiority. This also happens the other way around, of course, but HN demographics make one more typical.

replies(1): >>jacque+ia4
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16. jacque+ia4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-13 21:10:05
>>isaacr+8f3
I have lived in no less than 7 EU countries as well as Canada and a bunch of others and EU privacy laws + implementation are hands down the best in the world right now. Could they be better? Yes, absolutely. But nothing else even comes close.
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17. omnigl+WL7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-14 19:27:30
>>jacque+5V2
Nevertheless, law enforcement gets to do whatever the current governing regime permits, extrajudicially or otherwise. Consider that police in the US have both handcuffs and guns while police in the UK just have the handcuffs. Look at the effects, where so many in the US feel justified in their need to defend against extrajudicial force with guns (per 2A). Look also how many cops kill US citizens (suspect of a crime or not) compared to how many cops in the UK apparently don't feel such "fear for their life" which justifies the extrajudicial killings. If people have a hammer, nails will be what they find.
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