zlacker

[parent] [thread] 23 comments
1. shmatt+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-06-12 18:05:50
I swear, the current protests have shined a very odd light on the average commenting Redditor, they want

* The website to be free

* The API to be cheap

* The ability to use a 3rd party app that does not track, advertise, or monetize you in any way

* VCs to continue to pour hundreds of millions of dollars to run the site and never ask for an ROI

Good luck kids

replies(15): >>sosode+c2 >>toomuc+l2 >>marssa+J2 >>f_souz+r3 >>dale_g+v3 >>Nagyma+gb >>DSMan1+lf >>jasonl+ri >>pie420+nl >>jrflow+qn >>Gordon+Tt >>tayo42+711 >>zem+c91 >>jodrel+pt1 >>mtrowe+hT1
2. sosode+c2[view] [source] 2023-06-12 18:13:45
>>shmatt+(OP)
That's just the average internet user. They want something for nothing and often get it.

If you do ask for a few dollars a month you have to provide a ton of perceived value. That's despite the fact that they would spend it on snacks without hesitation.

replies(3): >>kcatsk+aa >>carlos+of >>bardak+az
3. toomuc+l2[view] [source] 2023-06-12 18:14:19
>>shmatt+(OP)
OpenStreetMap costs a few hundred thousand dollars a year to run. Wikipedia is about $3 million. Redditors are cheap, but you can have a backend doing the heavy lifting for a community (assuming mods work for free) at a cost that can be sustained with a small pool of financial contributors.

> VCs to continue to pour hundreds of millions of dollars to run the site and never ask for an ROI

None of this needs to cost hundreds of millions of dollars.

replies(1): >>joshjo+a9
4. marssa+J2[view] [source] 2023-06-12 18:15:44
>>shmatt+(OP)
I guess they want Usenet.
5. f_souz+r3[view] [source] 2023-06-12 18:18:13
>>shmatt+(OP)
The 3rd party app issue, and most of the API problem consequently, wouldn't be such a big issue if they didn't take forever to release the official app, only to put out an awful one when they finally did. You don't see many people using 3rd party apps for other social media.
replies(1): >>shmatt+ge
6. dale_g+v3[view] [source] 2023-06-12 18:18:22
>>shmatt+(OP)
Partly it's because Reddit is in an antagonistic relationship with its users. People want a good message board. A good message board doesn't make for very good advertisements. What do you advertise on /r/ChangeMyView ?

Partly it's because Reddit has squandered its users' goodwill. I'd be willing to pay for Reddit if it was clear Reddit was going to work in my favor. Since right now it's doing its best to run off the mobile app I'm using, why on earth would I do that?

replies(1): >>DANmod+d8
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7. DANmod+d8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-12 18:33:25
>>dale_g+v3
> What do you advertise on /r/ChangeMyView ?

Drink protectors and antidepressants.

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8. joshjo+a9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-12 18:36:38
>>toomuc+l2
Yeah, if they just dropped image/video hosting on the site, it's just a bunch of text and javascript (aka text), etc. Serving that is extremely cheap. They went from 400 employees in 2019 to 2000 now. I subscribed to Premium for years (not anymore due to their recent actions), and they should absolutely be able to run the site easily on the ~$600M in revenue they make now and be handily profitable.
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9. kcatsk+aa[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-12 18:40:00
>>sosode+c2
Then sell them snacks.
10. Nagyma+gb[view] [source] 2023-06-12 18:43:22
>>shmatt+(OP)
People will always want free things; that's nothing new! Especially on an Internet that was born free (aside from the cost to connect).

The average "Reddit" business is pretty odd; they want:

* Paying subscribers _and_ advertising revenue

* Free content: posts & comments

* Free moderation: voting & ToS enforcement

* The ability to monopolize said content

* Contributors to continue to pour millions of man-hours to make content for the site and never ask for anything like ad-free viewing, an enjoyable user-experience, tooling, etc.

Social platforms present a difficult balance between the users, contributors, moderators, and business - all within a very hostile internet (in terms of security, spam, etc).

For payment to happen, users do demand significant value to be parted from their $. In Reddit's case, the 3rd party apps are strongly desired because the 1st party app does not meet their needs (users _pay_ for these apps!). Reddit doesn't want to compete on UX, as they're demonstrably bad at it; partially due to lack of skill and due to mismatched incentives.

It seems like they incorrectly assume that they own the community, rather than the other way around. Reddit's primary value is in the content they are _given_ in exchange for hosting & tools - both of which are have significant downward cost pressure (which _should_ trend towards free, given a large enough community).

Reddit is trying to switch their customers from users to advertisers in order to make a profit, which is difficult after years of _generally_ serving users. It is bait and switch at it's finest and most egregious.

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11. shmatt+ge[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-12 18:53:35
>>f_souz+r3
You think Facebook would let a large percentage of users use a 3rd party app that blocks all advertisements, tracking, and other monetization? Look at how Meta treated the whole Apple tracking ordeal

If a lone dev would have made an app like Apollo for FB, they would be under 10,000 pages of litigation the next day

People don't use the FB app because its great. They would love a non-tracking version of the same service. It's just not allowed

12. DSMan1+lf[view] [source] 2023-06-12 18:57:32
>>shmatt+(OP)
> * The ability to use a 3rd party app that does not track, advertise, or monetize you in any way

I disagree on this point - I'm pretty sure all the big 3rd party apps at least have ads. The problem is fundamentally just that the 3rd party apps are a lot better than the official app, and have been for some time. If Reddit had made the official app better (which they've had _years_ to do) then significantly less people would care about any of this.

They also could have gone the Spotify route, which I think would have gone over significantly better - Keep the API as-is, but require a paid premium account login to use it. Functionally it's not even really a difference, but it means Reddit deals with all the details rather than the 3rd party apps. However, functionally the goal was to simply price the 3rd party apps out of existence, so that's probably why they didn't do this.

It's also pretty clear from the response that they never thought this through, which is hard to believe. They had to have it pointed out to them that tons of stuff currently uses the API which has no replacement, you'd think they'd have reviewed what currently uses the API before drastically changing it. Reddit has gotten significant value for free by having people write code against their API, that's code they didn't need to write themselves.

replies(1): >>chrisd+5k
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13. carlos+of[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-12 18:57:38
>>sosode+c2
That is the sad truth, the minds of most people disintegrate completely from all kind of logic or soundness when "free" is in the equation. People line up for long times to get free food that would've cost them a couple of bucks, people who are highly paid spend hours and weeks of their life arguing on the internet about why they can't and won't pay $5 for some software or online service.

As patience of creators and curators begin to run more thin, today's information society will split into tiers of those who pay and get good information vs those who demand free and will splash around in the filth of the free information sewers. The filth being ads, spyware, malware, low quality content, spiritually harmful content, government propaganda and worse.

14. jasonl+ri[view] [source] 2023-06-12 19:09:02
>>shmatt+(OP)
> they want

... the product that exists.

> VCs to continue to pour hundreds of millions of dollars to run the site and never ask for an ROI

VCs are free to ask for an ROI.

They are not owed an ROI.

Only the kids think they are. Especially childish people who think people are owed money for a crap product just because they put money into a business before where the goal was growth, not necessarily profitability.

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15. chrisd+5k[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-12 19:15:23
>>DSMan1+lf
> I'm pretty sure all the big 3rd party apps at least have ads.

I use(d) Relay for Redit, paid a small ($5?, maybe) one time fee for the "Premium" version a few years ago and have never see an ad. You are correct in the sense that if you use the free version of Relay (and possibly others), you would have ads from the app, not Reddit, but if you're willing to pay a small amount, you can get rid of them.

16. pie420+nl[view] [source] 2023-06-12 19:20:53
>>shmatt+(OP)
See: Wikipedia, Craigslist, AO3. all perfectly great websites not ruined by spam, tracking, backend, fancy graphics. Just great content, lightweight and clear UI.
17. jrflow+qn[view] [source] 2023-06-12 19:30:03
>>shmatt+(OP)
> VCs to continue to pour hundreds of millions of dollars to run the site and never ask for an ROI

Where have you seen somebody say that they wouldn’t post without venture funding for a given platform?

18. Gordon+Tt[view] [source] 2023-06-12 19:56:17
>>shmatt+(OP)
Could these goals could actually be achievable, via a community-sponsored model, similar to how Wikipedia works?

I'm not sure it would work, there are just so many challenges, over and beyond the initial bootstrapping.

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19. bardak+az[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-12 20:16:31
>>sosode+c2
Look at the vitriol that YouTube premium gets. I get it there are a lot of people that know how to have an ad free YouTube without paying. I don't like that some basic app features like background video playing are locked behind premium.

But at the end of the day the I am sure that for a large portion of people complaining they spent the majority of their video watching time watching YouTube. If it's not worth it to you to pay the equivalent of a big mac meal month to get rid of ads that's fine but don't act all morally superior to those that do.

replies(1): >>opport+Ag2
20. tayo42+711[view] [source] 2023-06-12 22:18:42
>>shmatt+(OP)
Without vc, cheap and ad supported is reasonable. Vc pumping in millions and expecting returns that requires building a company is the problem

Does reddit really need, hr, middle managers, sales, marketing, design teams. It wouldn't if it had a focused goal. Now it has all sorts of crap and extra features to try be profitable.

21. zem+c91[view] [source] 2023-06-12 23:00:27
>>shmatt+(OP)
absolutely. and ironically that's the one thing i would be willing to pay for - the ability to keep the site as free (as-in-beer) as possible for everyone. any gating of actual features or capabilities behind a paywall just turns me off the site, not in a "how dare they" sense but simply in a "good luck to them but the site is completely irrelevant to me now" sense.
22. jodrel+pt1[view] [source] 2023-06-13 01:14:37
>>shmatt+(OP)
Reddit was launched 17 years ago. How many Redditors have lived with this state of affairs their entire lives - since before they were born? If Reddit's minimum age is 13, people who are 30 who signed up as soon as it appeared have never known life to be different.

(And, when Reddit was launched it was the era of the single core Pentium 4; storage and compute and bandwidth were expensive. Now they aren't. Store Reddit comments in a compressed file, they fit on a $50 SSD).

23. mtrowe+hT1[view] [source] 2023-06-13 04:43:49
>>shmatt+(OP)
> * VCs to continue to pour hundreds of millions of dollars to run the site and never ask for an ROI

Do they? I sure don't. In fact VC involvement is just about the last thing I want out of anything I consider critical infrastructure...

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24. opport+Ag2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-13 07:39:56
>>bardak+az
A lot of that must come from actual children with no easy way of paying. The value prop is so obvious for any adult spending considerable time on the site that’s not in actual poverty that I doubt the vitriol is coming from them.
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