zlacker

[parent] [thread] 56 comments
1. mc32+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-07-15 00:05:07
The worst part of the pandemic beside policies that would swing back and forth (which is kind of understandable if you're learning as you go) was the inability to have discussions about the pros and cons of shutdowns and other pandemic related policies.

Social media and mainstream media saw it fit to censor dissenting voices --not those of quacks, we can mostly all agree on minimizing the voices of quacks but shutting down medical professionals and medical academics and so on is very concerning.

The only people they allowed to be wrong about the pandemic were govt officials. They could get it wrong and right it as many times as necessary.

replies(6): >>14+N >>s3r3ni+c3 >>Consul+f4 >>jimbob+Jh >>Natura+Il >>guelo+On
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2. 14+N[view] [source] 2022-07-15 00:11:13
>>mc32+(OP)
You wouldn’t believe how bad it was on reddit. Places like r/Canada had to ban any dissenting voices because they were unable to have a discussion that didn’t go with their beliefs. If I had to wager my left nut I would wager that sub is controlled by the government to try and sway a narrative. If you have a strong argument you have no issues about debate.
replies(1): >>steven+32
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3. steven+32[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 00:23:00
>>14+N
this thread is a year old but two of the mods of r/canada are white supremacists https://old.reddit.com/r/onguardforthee/comments/m4zywr/rcan...
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4. s3r3ni+c3[view] [source] 2022-07-15 00:30:33
>>mc32+(OP)
> Social media and mainstream media saw it fit to censor dissenting voices --not those of quacks, we can mostly all agree on minimizing the voices of quacks but shutting down medical professionals and medical academics and so on is very concerning.

No I don't agree with censoring _any_ voices - precisely because of this issue. The decentralized market of ideas will address the "quacks" in the room, as I don't trust any central authority to do that for me.

If a centralized authority wields power in a way that creates negative consequences, you don't give them _more_ power, or just hope that they'll do the right thing.

replies(7): >>dredmo+R3 >>majorm+U3 >>krapp+V3 >>space_+64 >>abeppu+s4 >>mc32+06 >>wonder+0b
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5. dredmo+R3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 00:37:08
>>s3r3ni+c3
"the dictum that truth always triumphs over persecution, is one of those pleasant falsehoods which men repeat after one another till they pass into commonplaces, but which all experience refutes. History teems with instances of truth put down by persecution. If not suppressed forever, it may be thrown back for centuries."

– John Stuart Mill, On Liberty (https://www.utilitarianism.com/ol/two.html)

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6. majorm+U3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 00:37:36
>>s3r3ni+c3
> The decentralized market of ideas will address the "quacks" in the room, as I don't trust any central authority to do that for me.

It'll magically take care of itself? Based on what evidence?

replies(1): >>s3r3ni+N5
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7. krapp+V3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 00:37:45
>>s3r3ni+c3
>The decentralized market of ideas will address the "quacks" in the room, as I don't trust any central authority to do that for me.

Name one time in the entirety of recorded history when "the decentralized market of ideas" did anything of the sort.

replies(2): >>spywar+B4 >>s3r3ni+V5
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8. space_+64[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 00:38:48
>>s3r3ni+c3
Isn't twitter part of the market of ideas? The NYT ect? The idea that we could have an information ecosystem devoid of human judgement is new or at least not widespread before the internet. It was part of a utopian idea, not entirely different from the ethos powering say crypto that we could encode simple rules and the truth would filter to the top, but that isn't how the public square worked before the internet, quite the opposite, your ability to reach anyone outside your town was pretty dependent on a small handful of companies and those utopian thinkers never really managed to show the rules they came up with for how that information should be spread resulted in truth
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9. Consul+f4[view] [source] 2022-07-15 00:40:21
>>mc32+(OP)
At least with the pandemic you can pretend that lives were at stake and dissenters were a public health risk. I disagree with that argument, but I can see it.

Those same social networks are de-ranking and blocking dissenters against the escalation of war against Russia in Ukraine. This is categorically different and a major escalation in censorship that most people are not realizing. It's very scary.

replies(3): >>kcb+m6 >>markdo+08 >>jessau+in
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10. abeppu+s4[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 00:41:53
>>s3r3ni+c3
I don't think on any time scale that the marketplace of ideas is sufficient to get rid of quacks. There are plenty of popular health-related practices which have had plenty of time to demonstrate their clinical efficacy, but which have failed to do so. Acupuncture, reiki, homeopathy etc all have people that believe in them despite the absence of evidence.

But on _short_ timescales, during an emergency when people are emotional, and in a context where media can benefit from amplifying a message whether or not it's true ... we've seen enough people believe some harmful stuff, and sometimes require extra medical attention because of it.

I'm not saying censorship alone is an answer -- but the marketplace of ideas is not functioning as you describe.

replies(1): >>Clubbe+ec
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11. spywar+B4[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 00:42:40
>>krapp+V3
The box office flop of Morbius
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12. s3r3ni+N5[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 00:51:08
>>majorm+U3
Based on all of recorded history.

For example, we didn't need the Vatican, a king, or some other central committee to tell us that the sun was the center of our solar system - eventually the data and market of ideas exposed the best & correct ideas.

The best disinfectant for bad ideas is more sunlight - not coverups.

replies(3): >>MrMan+Z6 >>Camper+v7 >>wonder+8b
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13. s3r3ni+V5[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 00:52:08
>>krapp+V3
> Name one time in the entirety of recorded history when "the decentralized market of ideas" did anything of the sort.

This is literally how most scientific progress is made.

replies(2): >>krapp+r6 >>astran+Ra
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14. mc32+06[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 00:52:37
>>s3r3ni+c3
In principle I agree with you but in practice quacks take advantage of people’s weaknesses, so it’s a balance between open marketplace and some very basic rules. But I agree with you in principle.
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15. kcb+m6[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 00:54:53
>>Consul+f4
> Those same social networks are de-ranking and blocking dissenters against the escalation of war against Russia in Ukraine.

Yea Russia shouldn't have escalated the war.

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16. krapp+r6[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 00:55:21
>>s3r3ni+V5
No, scientific progress is made by people educated in a particular field of study in the work of prior authorities in that field, making hypotheses and following established experimental methods, then publishing their results for review and verification by their peers. In other words, by the "centralized authority" of scientific consensus.

Science absolutely does not work by just letting everyone believe whatever they want and somehow just expecting the truth to "win."

replies(1): >>s3r3ni+d7
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17. MrMan+Z6[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 00:58:47
>>s3r3ni+N5
not true - people are susceptible to propaganda and marketing. lies spread mimetically, truth does not
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18. s3r3ni+d7[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 01:00:34
>>krapp+r6
I would call a group of educated professionals debating all sides / data for a particular hypothesis, coming to a general consensus after rigorous evaluation and debate, essentially what the "market of ideas" is meant to convey.

What you don't see here, for example, is any mention of a "President of Science" or other committee making that call, nor particular suppression of lines of inquiry.

replies(1): >>vkou+na
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19. Camper+v7[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 01:02:35
>>s3r3ni+N5
It feels different now, as if the quacks have voice-amplifying tools they didn't have hundreds of years ago.

Tools that have been painstakingly engineered to exploit bugs in the human brain's OS.

replies(1): >>buscoq+Gk
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20. markdo+08[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 01:06:00
>>Consul+f4
Of course Russian bots should be blocked. Why would anyone else support LESS defence by Ukraine?

What a bizarre idea.

replies(2): >>Consul+j9 >>kbelde+7f
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21. Consul+j9[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 01:15:21
>>markdo+08
The US got Ukraine into this war in the first place by intentionally provoking Russia into it. Obama admitted to committing the 2014 coup in Ukraine and then refused to go so far as to provide weapons because he said Russia would likely escalate. Trump gave them weapons and then Russia responded to that escalation by invading.

Even if you're okay with all of that, the US is not trying to help Ukraine win, it's trying to make the war as long and as expensive as possible for Russia. The US is sacrificing Ukrainian lives to harm Russia.

replies(3): >>astran+lb >>Calava+Ub >>jussij+7m
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22. vkou+na[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 01:25:38
>>s3r3ni+d7
What you also don't see in that process is every viewpoint given equal weight and consideration, or in the case of ignorant quacks, even any consideration.
replies(1): >>pigeon+Pd
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23. astran+Ra[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 01:27:24
>>s3r3ni+V5
According to Structure of Scientific Revolutions this isn't true; people hold onto silly ideas firmly for their entire lives, and they have to be discredited either by a revolution or retiring so they can't fight for it anymore.

Linguistics being an example where ideas about grammar are only accepted because Chomsky is still around forcing everyone to accept them; AI language models don't seem to follow them.

replies(1): >>kbelde+Ie
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24. wonder+0b[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 01:28:11
>>s3r3ni+c3
"The decentralized market of ideas will address the "quacks" in the room" This used to be the case, it no longer is in the time of social media. The voices of the quacks are amplified and they gain legions of followers. Just look at the rise of Q as an example and the current political climate. Any crazy fact can be thrown out and if it supports their world view, a good percentage of people will believe it without looking any deeper than what the guy on Twitter said.
replies(1): >>TimPC+cn
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25. wonder+8b[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 01:29:23
>>s3r3ni+N5
Sure, that took hundreds of years, we really don't have that sort of time during a pandemic.
replies(2): >>theand+3d >>kbelde+Be
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26. astran+lb[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 01:31:37
>>Consul+j9
Ukraine has had two elections since then, hasn't kept the people elected in 2014 (Zelensky was elected as the the pro-Russia candidate), certainly didn't like the corrupt Yanukovych who you're claiming the US couped, and the US has been giving Ukraine distance weapons like HIMARS so… no?

Though, Poroshenko (the guy who was elected in 2014 post-revolution and is some kind of chocolate factory oligarch) fled the country over a prosecution but has since come back to fight in the national guard, so it seems like even he's in favor of it.

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27. Calava+Ub[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 01:37:20
>>Consul+j9
The one commonality I've seen across virtually all these anti-Western narratives on the Ukraine conflict is that they completely ignore the agency of Ukraine as an independent nation state.

It's never that Ukrainians took to the streets in 2014 because their government was corrupt and undemocratic (literally imprisoning the leader of the opposition party), it's that they took to the streets because the US artificially manufactured dissent.

It's never that Ukraine had an independent desire to increase defense spending after it suffered military humiliation and loss of territory in 2014, it's that the West armed Ukraine to agitate against Russia.

Anything that could be interpreted either as an independent action by Ukraine or a Western intervention is automatically labeled as the latter without any explanation as to why.

The irony, of course, is that the only three things in this story that are unambiguously interventionist are Russia's 2014 invasion, the 'proxy' war between 2014 and 2022, and the 2022 invasion. There is simply no other way to slice it - Ukraine didn't invite foreign troops in to come and start shelling things. That is the elephant in the room that is never brought up in these narratives.

replies(2): >>Consul+Hd >>tguvot+Xk
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28. Clubbe+ec[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 01:41:43
>>abeppu+s4
>we've seen enough people believe some harmful stuff, and sometimes require extra medical attention because of it.

>I'm not saying censorship alone is an answer -- but the marketplace of ideas is not functioning as you describe.

Honestly, neither is curated news. At the time of this poll, 41% of people who identified as Democrats believe that if someone caught covid, their chance of hospitalization was 50% or higher. The actual number is 1-5%. Massive amounts of Republicans and Independents also believed this as well. You assume a fair, pure and incorruptible curator, which doesn't exist. Censorship isn't the answer.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/18/briefing/atlanta-shooting...

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29. theand+3d[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 01:50:16
>>wonder+8b
So? When time is short, nobody knows which ideas are right.
replies(1): >>faddyp+2h
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30. Consul+Hd[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 01:56:52
>>Calava+Ub
I find the bigger problem is people can't understand that often there's just bad guys vs bad guys. Sure, Putin is an evil, murderous dictator who belongs in prison for the rest of his life.

Now, what should happen to Obama for committing the coup in Ukraine? He bragged about negotiating the coup before the previous leaders had to flee and the Assistant Secretary of State and Ukrainian ambassador were caught on tape talking about "midwifing this thing in" and making sure their hand-selected candidate became the leader.

I find there's nothing bad enough I can say about Putin that allows anyone to even consider any nuance.

replies(1): >>Calava+je
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31. pigeon+Pd[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 01:57:24
>>vkou+na
And that’s decided by the president of science?
replies(1): >>vkou+he
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32. vkou+he[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 02:02:07
>>pigeon+Pd
No, it's decided by an unelected cabal of experts (appointed by the previous cabal of experts), who vet and haze new entrants for years and decades, before so much as giving them five minutes of their time, or letting them speak to a room full of laymen who don't know better (undergraduates).

You're right, though, public vaccine discourse would have been significantly better if we required internet research experts like Joe Rogan or any of the talking heads on Fox to have a PHD in immunology or epidemiology or at least a double-masters in biology and economics before we allowed them to speak to more than ~ten people at a time.

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33. Calava+je[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 02:02:15
>>Consul+Hd
Sometimes it is just bad guys versus bad guys. I don't think that's the case here, but let's humor that argument. Good and bad isn't a simple binary - it's a scale. And I have yet to see an anti-Western narrative on the Ukraine war that doesn't use vastly different yardsticks of what is acceptable behavior for the West versus Russia.
replies(1): >>Consul+3v1
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34. kbelde+Be[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 02:04:12
>>wonder+8b
During a pandemic, we also don't want to immediately fixate on a wrong idea, and not allow dissent.

As evidence, I gesture about me.

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35. kbelde+Ie[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 02:05:10
>>astran+Ra
You've never changed your mind?
replies(1): >>astran+dl
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36. kbelde+7f[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 02:08:09
>>markdo+08
Well, bots should be blocked.

But I think Russian plants should be allowed to post. They're obvious, and I think they do more harm to Russia than benefit.

We're the West. We thrive on freedom that would make Russian tyrants squirm. We can handle some dissent, even as we (figuratively) tear them apart.

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37. faddyp+2h[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 02:25:07
>>theand+3d
Which is why you don't ban people from platforms and demonize them when they present alternate ideas. Especially when those people up until the "pandemic" were considered experts in their fields and have equal or greater training then the "experts" on TV who have never actually seen patients and worked in the government for 40 years.
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38. jimbob+Jh[view] [source] 2022-07-15 02:32:40
>>mc32+(OP)
There was no discussion to be had. The fear was that COVID would mutate into something deadly like the Spanish Flu epidemic and we’d instantly lose an entire generation of kids. That didn’t end up happening but we couldn’t have known that until after.

The way it’s framed now, you’d think officials were weighing a 1% fatality rate against lockdowns. That’s silly. Before the vaccines were prepared and distributed, mutation was the much higher threat.

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39. buscoq+Gk[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 03:04:09
>>Camper+v7
People said the same thing when they invented the printing press and the radio and pretty much any other time it suddenly became easier for people to get their message out.

On the whole I tend to view it as a good thing overall rather than a negative.

replies(1): >>Camper+Pe2
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40. tguvot+Xk[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 03:07:25
>>Calava+Ub
Actually excellent observation (ignoring agency of Ukraine as an independent nation state). First time that I see it in on English speaking forums.

It's common russian rhetoric those days: they flat out deny that Ukraine is an independent state. It comes in a few variants

- After 2014 Ukraine doesn't have legitimate government therefor they are not a state

- Ukraine was never a state, it's just mistake

- Ukraine is just a project of communist party after 1917 revolution and it failed

- Ukraine is managed by USA/Anglo-Saxons/Collective West, hence it's not a real state

- Mix of above

It's also rather common instead of writing Ukraine to write 404

replies(1): >>Consul+tv1
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41. astran+dl[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 03:11:52
>>kbelde+Ie
I'm not a scientist with a publishing history, so we can't tell.
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42. Natura+Il[view] [source] 2022-07-15 03:17:00
>>mc32+(OP)
The pandemic really was a case study in why free speech is so important and how little of it we have on the Internet.

Aaron Swartz warned bout this a lot. It was like his main thing.

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43. jussij+7m[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 03:21:37
>>Consul+j9
The reason Ukraine is at war with Russia is because Ukraine refused to accept Putin's puppet leader, Viktor Yanukovych.

The Ukrainians got fed up with Viktor Yanukovych and his corrupt government so they voted him out.

That annoyed Putin so he hit back with the invasion of Crimea and then he really pushed his luck with a full scale invasion of Ukraine.

replies(1): >>Consul+Zv1
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44. TimPC+cn[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 03:34:43
>>wonder+0b
This was never the case unless you have a very strange reading of history. Look how long bad ideas like witches causing problems persisted and the popularity of mob justice for such acts.
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45. jessau+in[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 03:35:28
>>Consul+f4
This is categorically different and a major escalation in censorship that most people are not realizing. It's very scary.

It makes more sense now that several USA politicians have had "unscripted" moments in which they admitted that we are at war with Russia. [0][1] It will make even more sense when someone admits we have had "special forces" killing civilians in Donbas for years. As in, if we're at war, even if we don't dare declare it and even if most Americans would vote against it despite constant corporate media gaslighting, it is in some sense "disloyal" for pacifists to complain about war.

The censorship made no sense in February when we all pretended that the whole thing was totally unprovoked Russian aggression and we were just sad witnesses. At that time, the censorship just proved that something stunk about the war-media story.

[0] https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/04/26/ukra-a26.html

[1] https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2022/04/ukraine-nato-rus...

replies(1): >>Consul+062
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46. guelo+On[view] [source] 2022-07-15 03:41:35
>>mc32+(OP)
Sorry but to me this complaint is incomprehensible. Every view imaginable about the pandemic, right and wrong, got tons of discussion and garnered millions of adherents.
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47. Consul+3v1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 14:40:12
>>Calava+je
That's a silly thing to say to someone who literally just said Putin is an evil, murderous dictator who deserves to be in prison for the rest of his life. Is there any level of condemnation I could give him that would allow you to have a discussion about the US role in this situation?
replies(1): >>Calava+eD7
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48. Consul+tv1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 14:43:16
>>tguvot+Xk
Ukraine was never an independent state. First it was a Russian puppet. Then the US couped it and it became a US puppet. When the US topples your government, installs their hand picked leader, and then arms and trains your military, you don't really get to say you are a sovereign nation just because you may have had another election or two since then.
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49. Consul+Zv1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 14:46:13
>>jussij+7m
Ukraine is at war with Russia because the US couped the Russian puppet leader, replaced him with a US puppet leader, and then trained and armed an anti-Russian military on Russia's border.
replies(1): >>jussij+Od3
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50. Consul+062[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 17:54:32
>>jessau+in
Of course, it was provoked. Otherwise they wouldn’t refer to it all the time as an unprovoked invasion.

~ Noam Chomsky

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51. Camper+Pe2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-15 18:48:03
>>buscoq+Gk
I agree, but still... it feels different this time, somehow.

Maybe because few people had the means to shout everyone else down in the past. When everybody has a printing press or a radio station, it turns out that the noise floor gets really high. Everybody spends more time writing and talking, and less time reading and listening.

We're finding that the ability to boost your signal above the noise floor isn't even vaguely correlated to the merits of the message, the way overcoming resistance from editorial gatekeepers was in earlier times. Freedom of the press used to be the exclusive preserve of those who owned one, and that wasn't right, but now it goes to whoever yells the loudest, and I'm not convinced that's going to work out better for us all in the long run.

Sure hope it does, but early signs aren't inspiring.

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52. jussij+Od3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-16 04:42:13
>>Consul+Zv1
The coupe you speak of was the Ukrainian General Election. In the west that is referred to as democracy.
replies(1): >>Consul+De3
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53. Consul+De3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-16 04:57:31
>>jussij+Od3
You do know Ukraine had a violent coup in 2014, executed by Obama, and the democratically elected pro-Russian leader had to flee for his life? This isn't a conspiracy theory, Obama bragged publicly about how he brokered the deal for the unconstitutional transfer of power to his hand picked choice.

If you didn't know, consider what that means about your news sources. Even if it doesn't change your positions on Ukraine, the US overthrew a country and it wasn't big enough news that they made sure you knew it. It's just a random interview buried on CNN or whatever.

replies(1): >>jussij+ki3
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54. jussij+ki3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-16 05:48:50
>>Consul+De3
The event in 2014 that you refer to was the Revolution of Dignity and once again the concept of revolution goes hand in hand with the concept of democracy. Revolutions only happen when the people of a country are so fed up with their lack of democracy they revolt.
replies(1): >>Consul+Qk3
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55. Consul+Qk3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-16 06:26:16
>>jussij+ki3
Here's the US Army handbook on how to secretly make revolutions/coups happen, released by Wikileaks. https://file.wikileaks.org/file/us-fm3-05-130.pdf

Here's a transcript of the US Assistant Secretary of State and the US Ambassador to Ukraine planning the coup. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

Here's Obama saying he brokered the deal for the transfer of power, resulting in the democratically elected leader fleeing. https://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2015/02/01/pres-obama-on-...

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56. Calava+eD7[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-17 22:45:05
>>Consul+3v1
I don't think you understood my comment. It's not about how evil you or I think Putin is. It's about drawing false equivalencies.

Let's say for the sake of argument that Euromaidan was 100% manufactured by Obama. (I strongly disagree, but I'll give you that one for now.) A couple of hundred people died in the protests and riots. So far, by the Kremlin's own account, 100x to 200x that number have died in the 2022 invasion. Millions have been displaced. Entire towns and villages have been reduced to rubble. People are dying in Sri Lanka from famines because of the lack of Ukranian grain. How are you going to look anyone straight in the face and them that these evils are comparable?

This is what I mean when I say that every anti-Western narrative I've seen on this war uses different yardsticks for Russia and the West. Putin murdered 100 people? Well Obama killed 1 so it's really not that different is it? It's like asking a judge to give a thief who pocketed a candybar and a thief who robbed into a bank at gunpoint equal sentences because "both of them are thieves." I'd prefer not to have a thief as a roommate, but if my choices were a candybar thief or a bank robber, I know who I'd choose. You don't need a PhD in philosophy to understand this concept.

I'm am not sure if you are to arguing in bad faith or if you are sincere, but the drawing of false equivalencies is a favorite tool of those who argue in bad faith.

replies(1): >>Consul+N39
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57. Consul+N39[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-07-18 12:51:41
>>Calava+eD7
What do you think the US would do if Russia overthrew Mexico and started building up a military on our Southern border? Please refresh your memory on how close we were to total global annihilation during the Cuban missile crisis before responding.

Which country, in the last 30 years, has invaded more countries and killed more innocent people in wars of aggression? US or Russia?

Rank these world leaders in order of causing most innocent civilian deaths: Bush Jr, Obama, Trump, Biden, Putin.

Which country is providing the weapons for, providing intelligence, and coordinating strikes for Saudi Arabia's genocide in Yemen? US or Russia? How does the death count in Yemen compare to Ukraine?

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