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1. daenz+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-03-28 23:10:09
There's a dark irony to the idea that the defenses against sexism (standing up and calling people out) are also causing an unintended secondary sexism by discouraging equal treatment out of fear of accusations.

I've held the belief that if a someone can't recognize and clearly identify the differences between criticism based on merits and criticism based on bias, then there is no point attempting to do "what they want," because they don't know how to identify what they want even if they got it.

replies(6): >>WrtCdE+81 >>2muchc+y1 >>sidlls+H1 >>termin+K4 >>Sophis+M9 >>colech+ni
2. WrtCdE+81[view] [source] 2021-03-28 23:19:39
>>daenz+(OP)
I think trust is the issue, a person coming to you for answers is coming from a place of vulnerability.

I've solved this in the past by asking the person if they want a comforting lie or an honest truth. I still provide feedback in both ways but the honest truth path is what is taken by most people who are able to take negative feedback correctly.

replies(4): >>sidr+N6 >>Natana+2d >>LanceH+em >>random+2s
3. 2muchc+y1[view] [source] 2021-03-28 23:23:09
>>daenz+(OP)
In this case, could you have even identified it?

If the man on the panel was really experienced in said domain, regardless of if he was sexist or not, he could have given the same feed back. Especially if he’s really confident he’s right.

4. sidlls+H1[view] [source] 2021-03-28 23:24:04
>>daenz+(OP)
What is going today is far beyond calling out sexism (racism, homophobia, etc.). We’ve gone from closeted and dangerous bigotry to open and dangerous guilt-by-accusation.
replies(1): >>MeinBl+p5
5. termin+K4[view] [source] 2021-03-28 23:44:52
>>daenz+(OP)
It's not really that strange, since these defences are very blunt and inaccurate to begin with. Sexism is seldom clearly identifiable, even by its victims. How can you really tell if criticism you are receiving is sexist and not bona fide? The answer is in many contexts you simply cannot.
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6. MeinBl+p5[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-28 23:49:50
>>sidlls+H1
Not to mention stuff you did as a teenager can somehow disqualify you for future prospects.
replies(1): >>fakeda+ym
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7. sidr+N6[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-28 23:59:55
>>WrtCdE+81
Everyone thinks they want the honest truth. Has anyone ever told you they want you to lie to them?
replies(4): >>lazide+dd >>noisy_+Dk >>smeej+al >>WrtCdE+9i2
8. Sophis+M9[view] [source] 2021-03-29 00:19:36
>>daenz+(OP)
There's no irony here. If your plan to make society better is to infantilise group X because you view them as too weak to handle corrective feedback (or compete against group Y) they (as a group) will soon start to lose the benefits of success-selection that come with competition and correcting your course when you get feedback.
replies(1): >>MikeUt+uh
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9. Natana+2d[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-29 00:50:20
>>WrtCdE+81
I also think trust is the single biggest issue here.

The more you trust somebody the more leeway you will give them in how they can express themselves to you, because you expect them to be honest and you assume that they mean well. You are more willing to interpret ambiguity favorably. From experience this seems to be a rather universal phenomenon. I often determine how I should express myself to people based on how much I think they trust me, and this approach seems to work well enough.

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10. lazide+dd[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-29 00:52:01
>>sidr+N6
Not the poster, but I’ve used a similar strategy a handful of times - it’s been 50/50. Many people don’t really want a solution, they just want sympathy.

Which is long term self sabotage imo, but it is what it is.

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11. MikeUt+uh[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-29 01:34:07
>>Sophis+M9
> you view them as too weak to handle corrective feedback

The article says they don't get corrective feedback not because they're seen as too weak, but because it's too risky to give criticism, since it can be misinterpreted (or misrepresented) as sexism.

replies(2): >>looper+gj >>smeej+Mk
12. colech+ni[view] [source] 2021-03-29 01:44:53
>>daenz+(OP)
I think it is just a general dynamic of social movements.

As they accomplish their goals the moderate extreme membership drops out and the median voice moves ever towards the radical. "You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain" sort of thing. I'm not trying to say that about any specific movement, but it does seem like the "hero" aspect of many movements is on the decline.

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13. looper+gj[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-29 01:55:56
>>MikeUt+uh
Sadly, people in general can't take feedback.
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14. noisy_+Dk[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-29 02:07:13
>>sidr+N6
Depends on the phrasing - you don't have to call it "comforting lie" - something to the effect of "I can offer some encouraging points about this if you like or if you want critique, we can do that" would also do. I have had people tell me in the past, "I don't want you to solve it for me, just listen", which was a learning experience.
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15. smeej+Mk[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-29 02:09:14
>>MikeUt+uh
Is this actually different?

Isn't receiving what was intended as corrective feedback as though it were sexism a sign of weakness?

If you believed the person you were giving corrective feedback was strong enough to take it in stride and learn from it, there would be no need to worry.

replies(2): >>hn_go_+km >>pedrom+hn
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16. smeej+al[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-29 02:12:50
>>sidr+N6
I've definitely said to someone, "Right now, I want you to reassure me about this, even if you don't believe it."

I didn't call it a lie, but yes, that's what I was requesting.

In that circumstance, I believed things would ultimately work out, but my confidence was faltering. I needed to hear my own belief in an outside voice whether that person believed it or not.

I didn't actually need his belief. I already had my own. I just needed him to voice it.

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17. LanceH+em[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-29 02:27:16
>>WrtCdE+81
A lot of people get emotionally tied up with being "in charge" and can't take any criticism from a subordinate or outsider.

I've met people who treat any investor as a part owner and will listen to them as best they can. Then there are those who treat any investor as someone who is graciously being tolerated.

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18. hn_go_+km[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-29 02:28:21
>>smeej+Mk
Misconstruing someone's motives isn't a sign of weakness.
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19. fakeda+ym[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-29 02:31:24
>>MeinBl+p5
Don't know why you're down voted because this is so true that it's partly one of the reasons teens (and former teens) ditched Facebook or scrubbed it well enough. I don't know anyone who posts pictures of themselves having fun on social media now. It's all just sanitized and carefully curated bits.
replies(1): >>MeinBl+DA9
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20. pedrom+hn[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-29 02:38:24
>>smeej+Mk
They address this in the blogpost.

They claim male investors give more candid feedback to female founders they are familiar with, because they are not worried about the female founder calling them sexist on Twitter.

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21. random+2s[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-29 03:33:49
>>WrtCdE+81
I think this is a good framing. Note I always frame as a suggestion rather than a critique - ie, places to increase focus.
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22. WrtCdE+9i2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-29 16:43:35
>>sidr+N6
Yes, usually the management level who wants plausible deniability.
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23. MeinBl+DA9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-31 20:19:16
>>fakeda+ym
It really is. Although as long as it's not bad but paints me in a good light, I do it.
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