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1. Der_Ei+(OP)[view] [source] 2021-03-28 19:05:39
Reminds me of the phenomenon recorded of men avoiding women after the original #metoo thing.

Part of this is that I think that men feel they are walking on egg shells. The kinds of male assertiveness that my wife found attractive when she met me also can leave women who aren't into this assertiveness feeling harassed.

I feel that we need to be clear more about what is "desirable" masculinity it "desirable assertiveness" vs its toxic counterparts. Failure to do this will essentially neuter men over the long term - and it will lead to "men clamming up" or worse, a significant surge in the number of men who "go their own way" be it in the job or at home in their personal life.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/aug/29/men-wom...

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/men-are-afraid-to-mentor-f...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ellevate/2019/01/09/dear-sir-do...

https://kelainetaylor.medium.com/to-the-men-whose-response-t...

replies(4): >>oblio+m >>blabit+L3 >>MeinBl+h9 >>anonfo+fb
2. oblio+m[view] [source] 2021-03-28 19:07:55
>>Der_Ei+(OP)
I guess there's going to be a calibration period. The pendulum was stuck, it's started swinging, and the first few swings are completely out of whack. We'll get there, eventually.
replies(2): >>lupire+i3 >>mrweas+8c
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3. lupire+i3[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-28 19:24:06
>>oblio+m
There's no reason to assume that. The system could be destabilized because while a pendulum with two sides has a stable a world with many many competing interests and nonlinear feedback systems might not.
replies(1): >>oblio+Q4
4. blabit+L3[view] [source] 2021-03-28 19:26:07
>>Der_Ei+(OP)
I'll probably get downvoted for this but I think desirable vs toxic masculinity tends to depend on whether the woman in question finds the man in question attractive.
replies(1): >>Der_Ei+m5
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5. oblio+Q4[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-28 19:32:36
>>lupire+i3
Thankfully for us, men, apparently we're about 50% of the population and you know, traditionally, we've held 99% of the power in the world.

I'm not super worried that we'll be crushed under a matriarchy. Heck, in some regards a matriarchy might be a bit gentler than a patriarchy :-)

Edit: I seem to have touched a nerve, a lot of weak/sensitive men around here, it seems.

replies(1): >>Throwa+W8
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6. Der_Ei+m5[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-28 19:34:54
>>blabit+L3
Lookism is the final -ism that lacks a social justice movement. Incels and disfigured people are the closest thing to the "underclass" of physical attractiveness.

Yes, many time the distinction in the margins between toxic and desirable masculinity is partially based on the attractiveness of the person in question.

For what it's worth - men and women are equally bad in regards to lookism. I think we need to simply start explicitly saying that we shouldn't discriminate because someone is ugly. If RMS were as attractive as Micheal foucault, he wouldn't get in trouble for those age of consent beliefs (foucault, an attractive leftist, famously defended lowering the age of consent)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_petition_against_age_...

No one wants to cancel foucault because him and other french post modernists are the intellectual foundation for today's "wokeism"

A lot of the double standard is due to RMS being fat and ugly. No other explanation.

replies(3): >>MeinBl+L9 >>Partia+mk >>Der_Ei+7Z2
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7. Throwa+W8[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-28 19:51:02
>>oblio+Q4
I'm not worried about a matriarchy either; what I am worried about is a permanent state of cold war between identity groups, which is where it seems we're headed.
replies(1): >>oblio+9e
8. MeinBl+h9[view] [source] 2021-03-28 19:52:31
>>Der_Ei+(OP)
Didn't you see the pew research poll of male virginity at like 25%?

Were already there. And it's not gonna get better.

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9. MeinBl+L9[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-28 19:54:37
>>Der_Ei+m5
Or sodomizing a minor like roman polanski...
replies(1): >>DC1350+fa1
10. anonfo+fb[view] [source] 2021-03-28 20:01:33
>>Der_Ei+(OP)
One of the most offended I’ve seen my wife be was when she was told the only reason she wanted an assertive man was because she was brainwashed and deep down didn’t want it and was actually oppressed. She was a victim of the white male patriarchy and by being part of it she was an implicit supporter of racism. Meaning she had her agency to be her own person and have her own desires taken away from her, at least in this person’s eyes. She ended up not talking to this other person because she couldn’t get over the condescension. The feeling that the other person thought they were more enlightened or better than her. The only times I have stopped friendships have been similar - feeling like the other person looked down on me because of my choices or who I was.

I think there is a lot of pain brewing, and whether or not people come out the other side of it more entrenched in their worldview, or with more humility after having learned from the wild ride we are currently on.

Heck maybe I’ll come out the other side finally believing that there is only one true way to look at people and relationships and power differences, and any deviation from that is violence.

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11. mrweas+8c[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-28 20:06:08
>>oblio+m
Some very real issue have been highlighted in the last few years, issues that we really should have dealt with decades ago and I think you're right, there's currently an overreaction from society. That's will correct it self, even if some may still not like where we end up.

Sadly if you're concerned with these overreaction, and voice those concerns, you will be labelled as being against the chance. You quickly learn to shut up and just wait it out.

replies(1): >>oblio+xe
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12. oblio+9e[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-28 20:16:37
>>Throwa+W8
This is a gross exaggeration. Power struggles have been with us since the beginning of time.

Men and women will get along as they always have, with ups and downs. There are no "identity groups" because we aren't and can't be enemies. There are just a few loonies on both sides making a ton of noise, and they're getting amplified by the internet. They'll either get boring at some point or just be ignored completely from the outside of their circles.

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13. oblio+xe[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-28 20:19:17
>>mrweas+8c
> Sadly if you're concerned with these overreaction, and voice those concerns, you will be labelled as being against the change. You quickly learn to shut up and just wait it out.

This is a smart move for any kind of group/mob move/reaction, by the way. In much more extreme cases you'd be the smart, polite, but dead guy in the crowd, otherwise.

Crowds as a whole are rash and emotional, you can't reason with them. There's a reason Animal Farm had 10 word slogans, at most ;-)

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14. Partia+mk[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-28 20:53:09
>>Der_Ei+m5
I would appreciate it if someone could explain to me why this comment was downvoted.

It takes a stance based on the parent comment and gives an example where they believe looks had considerable differences in the behavior of society towards somebody. The example is not perhaps the best, but the fact that society actually shows favouritism towards attractive people should not be controversial.

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15. DC1350+fa1[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-29 04:15:53
>>MeinBl+L9
Or Alan Turing and Leonardo da Vinci
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16. Der_Ei+7Z2[view] [source] [discussion] 2021-03-29 16:51:07
>>Der_Ei+m5
Btw - this comment is especially funny now because TODAY an article came out claiming that Foucault was actually a pedophile.

https://www.ruetir.com/2021/03/29/writer-says-philosopher-mi...

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