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This is a shocking video:
https://www.wral.com/ace-perry-pulled-over-by-sampson-county...
+ white cop pulls over black driver (North Carolina)
+ refuses to tell him why he was stopped until he shows ID
+ asks driver questions about company name on his tee-shirt
+ expresses incredulity when driver says he works at the company
+ asks driver other irrelevant personal questions.
+ tells driver he was stopped for driving UNDER THE SPEED LIMIT (doing 65 in a 70)
+ asks driver: "wouldn't you find it suspicious if someone were doing 65 in a 70?"
+ gives driver a WRITTEN WARNING for driving 65 in a 70.
+ brushes off driver's questions saying "I've got stuff to do"
+ Feb 2020
Googling about the case `"Ace Perry" Sampson` it seems no action was taken against the officer. If anyone has an "in" with the ACLU (or similar), the police dept. could use some publicity.
(Strange how some cases don't get the attention they deserve.)
(Note: in response to a now apparently deleted comment: I'm aware that some roads have minimum speed limits. I remember once seeing on a highway: max75 min40. However, 65 in a 70 is just prudence.)
5mph isn't enough to give a ticket.
Apparently it is just enough to harass a minority though.
E.g., I remember on some highway it said max 75mph, and min 40mph.
65 in a 70 is just prudence though.
That said, it's well documented that blacks get singled out for fishing more but the officer probably treats everyone that way.
With that in mind, this is almost certainly a driving while black stop. The fact that he was stopped without a traffic violation as a pretext for fishing (usually they at least wait for you to go 5-over or touch the yellow line or something) leaves no other plausible explanation for why the officer pulled over a clean late model car and then proceeded to act like a jerk.
If there is even a slight incline, and I put my foot on the floor, it will not hold 60mph.
Without an incline it will physically not go 80mph.
Should I get a ticket for going to slow? I thought that's what the slow lane is for.
Police, especially in small towns, are notorious for targeting out of towners (the way a racist cop might target a race they don’t like).
Here you have to understand the training/experience of highway patrol. Here we have a rental and it was traveling below the speed limit...a highway cop might immediately think drug trafficking (again not knowing the race, something you probably never thought without the training and experience), And being under the speed limit gives him the right to make the stop (but what he really wants to do is check up on his suspicion). This would explain the questions about the job and where the driver was going to/coming from.
Maybe I missed something but there are hundreds of thousands of stops everyday, many like this one are ridiculous...I’m not sure how much attention this really deserves nor if the officer (who shouldn’t have made the stop to begin with) deserves to be labeled a racist (especially because now a days that is tantamount to being fired and losing your livelihood as well as all the targeting him and his family would endure).
Maybe a potential policing solution would be something akin to jury duty where citizens are selected to shadow officers on every shift, maybe require a mismatch Of the officer/citizen pairing Based on race/sex.
Min speed limits are usually 45. These days, if I’m not in a hurry, I go slow (55-60) in the slow lane because CO2 (20-25% lower emissions than the normal 70MPH around here).
However, I also support ticketing for going below the rate of traffic in the fast lane. Examples: 64 in a 65, or even 70 in a 65, but only if there are a bunch of cars behind you, and a big gap in front.
We moved away from intent in the 1970s.
What matters now is impact, not intent. If excessive police stops disproportionately affect black drivers those stops are racist, and the people performing the stops are racist.
But we know this, from Fergusson and similar.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pqskm
> Are excessive traffic fines and debtors' jails fuelling community tensions in suburban Missouri? Claire Bolderson reports on a network of ninety separate cities in St Louis County, most of which have their own courts and police forces. Critics say that their size makes them financially unviable and allege that some of them boost their incomes by fining their own citizens and locking them up when they can't pay.
> This edition of Crossing Continents goes out and about in St Louis County to meet the people who say they are victims of a system which sees arrest warrants issued for relatively minor misdemeanours. Many of the victims are poor and black. The programme also takes us into the courts, and out onto the freeways with some of the County's police, who say they are upholding the law and promoting road safety.
> The US government is not so sure. One of the towns in question is Ferguson where riots erupted after a white police officer shot a young black man dead last summer. In a recent report on the riots, the Department of Justice concluded that the Ferguson police had been stopping people for no good reason. It said they were putting revenue before public safety.
Read my comment, where did I say this was suspicious? What I said in regards to the stop is:
> there are hundreds of thousands of stops everyday, many like this one are ridiculous
>shouldn’t have made the stop to begin with
The law on police stops is very clear you need a violation of a statute or pc...so if there is a minimum and you are under it that is a violation and a cop can stop you...just the same as if you violate the maximum speed statute the cop can stop you. In Florida they even have a “catch all statute” to pull you over if you are driving the exact speed limit if that wasn’t safe based on “conditions of the road” which of course is purely subjective.
I’m not arguing for or against the laws in any capacity and the laws are not my logic.
So black police in those jurisdictions are racists against blacks because the jurisdiction as a whole disproportionately stops blacks?
I don’t think that’s how it works.
the questions combined with the stop suggest the cop was suspicious of drug trafficking because of a rental on the highway going under the speed limit (As you say fishing). Maybe race played a factor but odds are he pulled the rental over under that pretext before knowing the drivers race.
On the way home, the sheriff or some bullshit village police would frequently pull over a black driver I recognized from fishing. You’re talking old men in their 70s.
I won’t claim the same treatment, but I would get pulled over at least monthly for various bs offenses. I found out later it was because my car was purchased and registered in a big city, and you could tell the county of registration from the plate.
They said they "were blind to". It is easy to miss things when they do not affect you personally.
Like it is a privilege to be able to absorb the potential ticket, that you might be able to get out of like this guy did with a warning.
It seems more likely that the cop would create pretexts to escalate the situation by not talking to them.
Where? That depends on the jurisdiction. That also may depend on what kind of road we are talking about.
"Drive too fast" JAIL
"too slow" JAIL
I'm not quite sure how I feel about this. Impact can reveal underlying issues but is not necessarily racist in and of itself.
Consider the policy of "draw 100,000 names out of a hat and search those people for drugs". It is very unlikely that the demographic of those arrested as a result perfectly matches the demographic of the nation as a while, but I think it is hard to argue discrimination or prejudice here, because there is not even an opportunity for a human to have exercised discrimination.
Fishing stops like the OP posted try to be like this policy - a random dragnet. The issue, of course, is that the randomness is implemented by a racist police force. Black people are "randomly" stopped disproportionately, and treated harsher during the stop. So the disproportionate result is plausibly explained by racist intent.
Is there any other occupation(s) you strip people of their racial identity Or just police?
So, just in case you actually mean what you say, what I'm getting at:
if your colleagues have a certain conduct, you follow suite. It's human nature. That doesn't mean every police officer, black or other other ethnicity is inherently racist. But they as a group act according to a pattern. A Blue pattern. You watch out for your own, no matter race or creed. I hope that cleared things up.
I suppose your Jeep is somewhat heavier, but that still doesn't sound right.
Anyway I think you might be missing the point where the poster stated:
>”under is suspicious according to your thinking...”
I never said driving under the speed limit is suspicious, and I specifically said I think this stop was ridiculous...still I don’t think we can say he was stopped for being black (it’s possible) but more likely due to being a rental car driving under the speed limit.
That is the complete opposite of being a racist.
The link literally said the officer faced no consequences.
I mean, if being labeled a racist was a dangerous as you seem to think, you'd really think that people in comfortable positions of power would go out of their way not to act racist. And as links like this show, they don't. So frankly I think that's an existence proof to the contrary.
I'm pretty confident that going 5 MPH under the speed limit does not endanger anyone else on the road and does not constitute reasonable suspicion to stop the driver.
It was harassment and country-of-residence profiling (driving while Canadian, though admittedly it was also a major corridor for pot smuggling at the time). Crooked police cultures can set in for all sorts of reasons.
I once was pulled over when I did a cross-country road trip. I was given some bs reason that I cut off a semi truck when changing lanes and that my GPS unit in the car was too high and blocking my view. I'm not a POC and the cop asked tons of questions, wanted to inspect my trunk, called the k9 unit, etc. I ended up also getting a warning. Subsequently the cops followed me for miles which felt like they're trying to harass me and find another reason to pull me over. So these things exist regardless of skin color.
Your attempt to dismiss racism as a factor in police actions is a big part of the reason why the police are able to get away with it so much.
There's a video of looters in Manhattan driving a Rolls Royce, obviously rented. There is no reason that nerds on the internet would know anything street smart like that.
His encounter with those same officers a few minutes later was caught on body cam: https://youtu.be/28w6xvRj9EM
This is a guy who is arguably as “privileged” as it gets for someone pulled over by the police: highly educated white guy attorney who hadn’t done anything wrong. And he was charged with two (very minor) crimes.
It’s easy to give the advice to exercise your rights but it’s difficult in practice when the retaliation by those in authority is so clear.
Additionally, all around MSFT campuses in the old days there'd be cops waiting to catch exiting employees going 36 in a 30 (exactly 5+ over) at the end of the month to fill their quota.
There used to be a host of lawyers on the Eastside who specialized in getting rid of traffic tickets for MSFT employees on technicalities. It was cheaper than having your insurance jacked up.
I got a traffic ticket every 6 months or so in WA (all of them for 6 miles above in a residential, because I drove like an old man even when I was young). Since moving to CA, in almost two decades I've gotten exactly one for rolling a stop sign. My driving habits haven't changed.
All that to say traffic enforcement is a relied-upon income stream for some places in the US.
James Mickens, using logic and humor, makes this point in a way that even geeks might understand.
"Why Do Keynote Speakers Keep Suggesting That Improving Security Is Possible?"
You're probably right, but suspect you'd find quite a few of people who would not agree (we have a whole legal system based on intent for all sorts of crimes -- most people think it matters.)
With that assumption, don't think it's super constructive to harden oneself to an academic definition that can interpreted as weaponization. There are so many unambiguous examples of racism that can galvanize the majority / help facilitate understanding -- don't see the point in the flippancy / pushing to ball to a place that will be polarizing. You're not changing any minds.
Are there PR firms out there trying to set public perception?
They're being asked to do literally everything but are armed and trained for anti-violence first and foremost.
The thing is, police brutality is heavily promoted on the news right now because, well, it outrages people, that's the point. It generates more ad revenue that way.
But if you hear it and see this every day, and someone says the word "police", your mind immediately thinks of "brutality". Not that it doesn't exist, but availability bias makes the issue seem much bigger than it actually is. This is why it's a bias.
And to put the danger of racist white police officers into perspective: https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/163/274/fbf...
Yes, racists are a problem, but not a very big one.
I'll put this to you - people of color are absolutely justifiably fearful of any interaction with the police, and they have to experience it much more frequently. You need a source? Here - https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/03/us/minneapoli... Hope you'll read it.
WTF, there's zero reasons to believe this is a shill account. Looking at the commenters history it looks like a run of the mill HN account (Oh but that's just more proof of shilldom! right?)
Just because it's posting something critical to the police you jump to "shill"? Because posts critical of the police are so rare and not at all something that's been common on the internet for more than 25 years?
And this includes ALL white people, much less "white people who happen to be police officers". My argument is not saying police brutality doesn't "exist", I'm saying it's "overblown".
Finally, I am a "person of color" myself and I don't find the police behave to me in the way you describe. They don't act that way towards my father either, not even once in his life. Or any of my person-of-color friends for that matter. Admittedly, this is anecdotal, but my main point is the overall data does not point towards your premise.
The problem is that you're assuming the system is fair and therefore the statistics that come from it are a reflection of reality. If the system is racist then the statistics will be a reflection of that racism. Until you can demonstrate that isn't the case then using crime statistics as an excuse for police actions will be questionable at best, and actively enabling racism at worst.
Police officers should be beyond reproach. Their behaviour should be exemplary. If an officer is harassing people that's already enough reason to question whether they're fit for the job, and if there's any doubt whether they're being racist or not then it should be on the officer to demonstrate that they're not (using their record, bodycam evidence, etc). The police have had decades of unquestioning respect from the public and they've abused that privilege. Now it's time for the police to earn that respect back.
For those that drive to Mammoth, they'll know there's the town of Bishop. After cruising freeway speeds for hours on end, the speed limits drop dramatically fast. They're easy to miss. At night that tiny town will have cops hidden and ready for speeders, but also cars that look suspicious. A car filled with young guys is a prime target.
I've been pulled over multiple times there, and after finding nothing they let you go.
He has no venue to respond. No one even accused him of being racist, besides you. How is he supposed to defend himself, come onto hacker news and write a reply?
The police dept released a statement said they'd review the video and take any action deemed necessary. What you would have them do?
That, but with an independent third party instead of the police dept. Police are clearly not capable of policing themselves.
Throw in waze and you're in a situation where you can basically cruise at 90 for a long distance vs. 75. Escort or V1
What else can be used other than statistics? Is there some other common frame of reference out there?
Ive seen a lot of evidence of black people not being able to fully prove their innocence and taking a plea deal because they would rather spend 6 months in jail over fighting, with the aid of an incompetent public defender, to avoid a 10 year sentence.
With all the corruption caught on officer body cameras in just the last 5 years (planting drugs, killing innocent people, unnecessary excessive force, death penalty/life sentence convictions overturned, prosecutors caught hiding evidence of innocence, etc)... It is safe to assume that this level of corruption (which is in many cases protected by both qualified immunity and prosecutorial immunity) has been going on for decades, heavily skewing black crime stats with false entries.
For these kinds of stops, where they were waiting on side roads for you drive by, a radar detector might not even help much ?
I did have friends with detectors for highway driving, so your suggestion is solid. I wish cars had them as options like leather seats :-)
Stop murdering or otherwise harassing black people...?
Stop switching cameras off, stop blocking any attempt at creating accountability, stop working for the police.
I'm not sure reality works that cleanly, but I think that's the thought.
At what point do these abstractions become ridiculous? White and Black are races but Blue is a different category and yet equivalent?
So in other words cops are guilty of being racists (And everything else) until being proven innocent?
Anyone charged with a crime is innocent until proven guilty because we feel as a society it is better to let guilty go free rather than convict innocent...Its why the standard in criminal law is beyond a reasonable doubt. Everyone should be treated equally under the law, regardless of race, religion, sex, sexual orientation and occupation.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.newsobserver.com/news/polit...
That said you can be confident all you want in NC if you are driving slow on a highway it’s a traffic offense because driving slow impedes traffic and is dangerous (not my argument, but the rationale for the law)Z
Okay. Why did this trooper then ask for reg and ID, do a background check, and issue an unexplained warning?
Back to your point: I just watched the linked video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODmT-KDfkC0
How could the trooper NOT know the driver's race before pulling him over?
So there are plenty of ways to acquire statistics and data other than through the biased system you are trying to examine. Think of it like going after a computer system that you suspect has been rooted. Do you want to use the system tools from that system to examine itself? Probably not.
Qualitative research eg talking to people. Use empathy and compassion. Don't try to distill everything down to numbers.
-Mark Twain
https://www.bing.com/search?form=MOZLBR&pc=MOZI&q=blacks+lie...
The problem with statistics is that you need to take lots of time and care to have all sides fully explain their position and be able to rebut counterarguments with more data. If you do this, you will get to the truth, which is why people who are wrong tend to push conspiracy theories in order to dismiss the data instead of putting forward testable arguments. There is no better (or worse) non-argument than the one that you assert can not be falsified a priori.
If I recall correctly, there's a few confounding factors there - one is that survey results for "have you used drugs in the past week" show much higher relative use by African Americans than "have you used drugs in the past year". Another is that in other surveys African Americans were significantly more likely to answer "no" to "are you a convinced felon" given that they were actually convinced felons, so the survey results aren't necessarily accurate anyways.
Quick question. How many black people did US police murder last year? Order of magnitude. How many would be few enough for you to say that the police have "stopped" - 100? 10? 1? 0?
My guess is that the actual number is a lot lower than you're thinking, even when counting unintentional things like "police officer made a mistake, shot innocent person" and "pig strangled someone a little too long". Not to say that that's excusable when it does occur, but...
This is why the powerless and minorities are heavily impacted. Who writes laws? Who edits laws? It is the powerful people with levels of indirection: lobbyists, politicians. That's why the elite is not impacted, because if they get impacted, they can change the laws.
Immunity came about because if prosecutors were Personably liable for charges where there were no convictions no one would take those positions. Similarly if police were personally liable for arrests where there were no convictions no one would be a cop.
But the same is true to a degree for all government, for example if I were to get hit by a county/city bus, generally the driver won’t be liable and worse my damages against the government are capped (I believe at $200k In FL, unless the government waived the cap and good luck with that).
How can you conclude the officer knew the drivers race and that’s the reason for the stop?
Thanks for writing that
-sunnydaze-
i called Sampson Co just now, and Deputy Snow told me they promoted the officer
[this is where i would post their phone number if the rules didn't tell me not to]
"How can you conclude the officer knew the drivers race"
What measure of proof do you require?
[0] They can still go get the records any time after all.
At least some before I label someone a racist. Like I said he might be racist but I didn’t see anything to label him that.
Just because he is a white cop pulling over a black driver Doesn’t make him racist. If everything was the exact same but the cop was black would you label him a racist or just a dickhead cop?
I said many times I’m not ok with the stop, but based on the stop and questions I was clearly a bias of being rental/out of towner (which is wrong too, but doesn’t make someone a racist)
Forget what proof I need, what did you see that makes him a racist? You think he has never stopped a white person for no good reason and asked them similar questions (Maybe, but I doubt it)?
The thing that goes after the but is called an "excuse".
