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1. etrabr+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-11 05:00:23
Do you have any data that we could use to find out which hypothesis has the most explanatory power? High black crime rates make it difficult to distinguish racial motivations for police suspicion from other motivations. I would love to see arrest rates by race controlled for crime rates.
replies(1): >>onion2+Ka
2. onion2+Ka[view] [source] 2020-06-11 07:12:09
>>etrabr+(OP)
You would also need to control for unreported crime in non-black races. If the police ignore minor crimes by some races (eg not arresting white people found with small quantities of drugs) while they do arrest black people for the same crimes, or if the police ignore crime committed in white neighbourhoods and focus their efforts on arresting black people, then "black rates of crime are higher" is a fiction that stems from systemic police racism and isn't provably real.

The problem is that you're assuming the system is fair and therefore the statistics that come from it are a reflection of reality. If the system is racist then the statistics will be a reflection of that racism. Until you can demonstrate that isn't the case then using crime statistics as an excuse for police actions will be questionable at best, and actively enabling racism at worst.

replies(2): >>jeegsy+aG >>genoap+gG
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3. jeegsy+aG[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 12:12:19
>>onion2+Ka
> Until you can demonstrate that isn't the case then using crime statistics as an excuse for police actions will be questionable at best

What else can be used other than statistics? Is there some other common frame of reference out there?

replies(3): >>jellic+hb1 >>onion2+9j1 >>etrabr+tl1
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4. genoap+gG[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 12:13:37
>>onion2+Ka
Also a big assumption here is that black people dont plead guilty to crimes they haven't committed at a higher rate than the rest of the population.

Ive seen a lot of evidence of black people not being able to fully prove their innocence and taking a plea deal because they would rather spend 6 months in jail over fighting, with the aid of an incompetent public defender, to avoid a 10 year sentence.

With all the corruption caught on officer body cameras in just the last 5 years (planting drugs, killing innocent people, unnecessary excessive force, death penalty/life sentence convictions overturned, prosecutors caught hiding evidence of innocence, etc)... It is safe to assume that this level of corruption (which is in many cases protected by both qualified immunity and prosecutorial immunity) has been going on for decades, heavily skewing black crime stats with false entries.

replies(1): >>scarfa+jw5
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5. jellic+hb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 15:29:41
>>jeegsy+aG
Well, among other things, if you simply poll people and ask about drug use, white people admit to using drugs at higher rates than black people but are punished much much less frequently for it.

So there are plenty of ways to acquire statistics and data other than through the biased system you are trying to examine. Think of it like going after a computer system that you suspect has been rooted. Do you want to use the system tools from that system to examine itself? Probably not.

replies(1): >>DuskSt+nm1
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6. onion2+9j1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 16:16:09
>>jeegsy+aG
What else can be used other than statistics? Is there some other common frame of reference out there?

Qualitative research eg talking to people. Use empathy and compassion. Don't try to distill everything down to numbers.

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7. etrabr+tl1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 16:29:43
>>jeegsy+aG
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

-Mark Twain

https://www.bing.com/search?form=MOZLBR&pc=MOZI&q=blacks+lie...

The problem with statistics is that you need to take lots of time and care to have all sides fully explain their position and be able to rebut counterarguments with more data. If you do this, you will get to the truth, which is why people who are wrong tend to push conspiracy theories in order to dismiss the data instead of putting forward testable arguments. There is no better (or worse) non-argument than the one that you assert can not be falsified a priori.

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8. DuskSt+nm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-11 16:34:58
>>jellic+hb1
> Well, among other things, if you simply poll people and ask about drug use, white people admit to using drugs at higher rates than black people but are punished much much less frequently for it.

If I recall correctly, there's a few confounding factors there - one is that survey results for "have you used drugs in the past week" show much higher relative use by African Americans than "have you used drugs in the past year". Another is that in other surveys African Americans were significantly more likely to answer "no" to "are you a convinced felon" given that they were actually convinced felons, so the survey results aren't necessarily accurate anyways.

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9. scarfa+jw5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-13 03:40:52
>>genoap+gG
And police are legally allowed to lie. “I found your fingerprint on the $x” - when they never found it.
replies(1): >>etrabr+y9y
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10. etrabr+y9y[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-23 16:55:42
>>scarfa+jw5
Yes, they can lie during an interrogation to make you confess. Not during a trial.
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