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1. rectan+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-06-02 01:54:32
I have always suspected that US police are shunted into sub-optimal patterns because there are so many guns here that the odds a simple interaction will involve a firearm are much higher than they are in less-well-armed societies. Does anybody know if I'm right about that?

That doesn't mean that they can't do more de-escalation or take other steps, but the high prevalence of guns does seem like it would be a contributing factor.

(I realize this touches a hot topic (guns) but it's an honest question, and sympathetic to law enforcement.)

replies(5): >>maxeri+g5 >>bluedi+a6 >>pjc50+S6 >>moate+V7 >>Shackl+yC
2. maxeri+g5[view] [source] 2020-06-02 02:38:13
>>rectan+(OP)
Their aggressive approach is difficult to justify with statistics.

Despite the much higher relative levels, the amount of gun violence in the US still isn't all that high in an absolute sense, and police are not particularly the target of it.

3. bluedi+a6[view] [source] 2020-06-02 02:46:55
>>rectan+(OP)
There have been almost no guns used against police during these protests.
replies(1): >>humanr+ky
4. pjc50+S6[view] [source] 2020-06-02 02:53:06
>>rectan+(OP)
White protestors were allowed to occupy a state building with guns without a single bit of teargas.
replies(2): >>frabbi+Ba >>exolym+vg
5. moate+V7[view] [source] 2020-06-02 03:00:11
>>rectan+(OP)
Of course you’re right. It’s why people-police statements are constantly pointing out how these guys “put their life in the line every day” in reference to the dangerous criminals out there (while ignoring that most crimes are non-violent offenses, or at least offense that don’t involve a gun). The 2A people want the government to fear its citizen’s (in their mind this somehow prevents tyranny) and then complain when the state responds to violence with fear and violence.

It’s almost as if the American gun lobby wants both sides to need lots of guns and bullets for some reason...

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6. frabbi+Ba[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 03:23:55
>>pjc50+S6
Not to mention the Malheur Refuge standoff where heavily armed protestors were handled with kid gloves.

Maybe it's to do with having guns?

replies(2): >>pjc50+Sn >>creato+hB
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7. exolym+vg[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 04:25:42
>>pjc50+S6
Well yeah, if all of the protestors are armed, the police realize they can't escalate the situation and get away with it.
replies(1): >>andrew+mq
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8. pjc50+Sn[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 05:45:33
>>frabbi+Ba
Given that one of the subjects of the protests is whether police can murder on mere suspicion of a weapon, I suspect not. The chances of a comparable hypothetical BLM armed occupation being allowed to live are small. If they surrendered they would likely be shot in the back of the head while handcuffed.
replies(1): >>kthxby+Qo
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9. kthxby+Qo[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 05:54:49
>>pjc50+Sn
Or the police would preemptively send a death squad to their house to murder them, as happened in the 60’s

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton

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10. andrew+mq[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 06:08:26
>>exolym+vg
So the question here is: Would the response have been the same if all the heavily armored folk were black?

As a born and raised American, I'm inclined to think not. I could be wrong of course, but everything that I've seen and experienced growing up and living in the US has led me to believe otherwise.

I want to think that more protestors being armed would make a difference, but ultimately I believe it will just lead to escalation and more deaths by cop (and/or the national guard, as we're finding out in Louisville currently).

replies(2): >>maynia+hL >>michae+xZ
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11. humanr+ky[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 07:21:58
>>bluedi+a6
But to rephrase, there was a LEO murdered in a drive-by shooting.
replies(1): >>bobbea+iW
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12. creato+hB[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 07:53:59
>>frabbi+Ba
A few of those protestors were chased through a road block and shot at, and one was killed. It is ironic that you are calling the police killing someone handling with "kid gloves" in a thread about deescalation between protestors and police.

(Don't get me wrong, what those protestors did was senseless and the epitome of entitlement.)

replies(1): >>Tulliu+O11
13. Shackl+yC[view] [source] 2020-06-02 08:06:50
>>rectan+(OP)
> will involve a firearm are much higher than they are in less-well-armed societies. Does anybody know if I'm right about that?

Switzerland (disclaimer; I'm Swiss) has also lots of weapons around, but if the police are ever shooting someone it's usually big news with investigations on whether it was really necessary.

From my laymen point of view, police training and holding them accountable to their actions is probably even a bigger factor than gun availability (although this is certainly a factor too). If I'm not mistaken, Swiss police training strongly encourages to back off if someone draws a weapon, trying to keep it cool, talk softly/slowly etc. It seems that in the US, the first hint of a weapon will result in drawn weapons by police and a 'drop your weapon'-shouting-contest; that's at least what seems to often happen in footage that ends up in the news where something goes wrong and someone ends up being dead.

Edit: One of the more memorable examples I saw was a video via NYT, where some guy was being arrested, tried to adjust his pants and was immediately being shot because the officer thought he was going for a gun. This is absolutely unimaginable in Switzerland; I would have to look it up for the facts but I think to remember a case where someone was shot holding (and threatening with) a fake-gun, and the officer who did so went to jail if I remember correctly.

replies(1): >>welter+IO
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14. maynia+hL[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 09:47:29
>>andrew+mq
"Would the response have been the same if all the heavily armored folk were black?"

There's precedent for this. In the 60s the black panthers open carried in California to protest, of course, police misconduct. Reagan signed in the Mulford Act [1], banning open carry in CA.

If BLM want stricter gun control laws (not sure if they do), all they need to do is arm themselves at protests.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act

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15. welter+IO[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 10:36:55
>>Shackl+yC
Isn't it quite difficult to get a carry permit for a gun in Switzerland though? Making it not that likely that a random citizen the police officer encounters will actually have a loaded gun.
replies(2): >>hef198+lQ >>snovv_+eT
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16. hef198+lQ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 10:53:35
>>welter+IO
According to the German, and French, police, illegal arms are the problem. Not the legal ones. And for the illegal ones, permits aren't important.
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17. snovv_+eT[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 11:21:06
>>welter+IO
There is mandatory military service for males, so you actually see a lot of guns being open-carried by people heading home for the weekend on public transport etc.
replies(1): >>welter+5U
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18. welter+5U[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 11:29:52
>>snovv_+eT
They are not allowed to be loaded however if I am not misinformed.
replies(1): >>snovv_+Qg2
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19. bobbea+iW[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 11:52:43
>>humanr+ky
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests 200 cities have had protests. Out of the probably hundreds of thousands of people protesting, guns have been responsible for one death of an officer (as far as I know)
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20. michae+xZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 12:27:04
>>andrew+mq
In a historical precedent that doesn't particularly clarify the situation, in 1967 the Black Panthers were able to enter the California state capitol building with guns. [1]

Apparently they were let in, then arrested, then released without charge and their guns returned as they hadn't broken the law. However, they were there protesting against the 'Mulford Act' that intended to disarm them, and it was subsequently passed. So they didn't get shot, but they didn't get what they wanted either, and they did get banned from doing it again.

Of course, there's a lot more detail than I've put into this post, and society was pretty different at the time. Reagan supporting gun control? The NRA as a sporting organisation that supported gun control? And the panthers were Marxist? So I'm not sure it's a very instructive example about how the same thing would go today.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_Party#Protest_at...

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21. Tulliu+O11[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 12:44:08
>>creato+hB
> A few of those protestors were chased through a road block and shot at, and one was killed.

This is a highly misleading way of describing the situation.

The police set up a traffic stop to arrest them. They fled the stop. Finicum told the police he wasn't going to surrender and that they'd have to shoot him. He reached for his gun in his pocket, and then he was shot.

If black men were only being killed by police after fleeing arrest, refusing to surrender, challenging the police to shoot them, and then reaching for a gun...then we wouldn't have much of a police violence problem.

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22. snovv_+Qg2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-06-02 19:25:58
>>welter+5U
Can you tell if there's a round in the chamber from the outside?
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