zlacker

[parent] [thread] 62 comments
1. JSavag+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-05-29 14:53:12
How is it legal for a police offer to arrest someone without any warning, without even telling them why they're being arrested, and without probable cause? What are the repercussions for these officers for falsely arresting people? Do they suffer any consequences, or do they suffer no punishment for this injustice?

This is extremely disturbing, and further evidence that the U.S. is a police state. I've never felt more ashamed of my country.

replies(8): >>monoca+z >>kfrzco+j6 >>brudge+C8 >>coffee+lb >>bargl+re >>corrup+Pl >>parlia+8x >>steveh+SK
2. monoca+z[view] [source] 2020-05-29 14:55:43
>>JSavag+(OP)
> How is it legal for a police offer to arrest someone without any warning, without even telling them why they're being arrested, and without probable cause?

Cops can hold you for some amount of time, generally around 24 hours without cause.

> What are the repercussions for these officers for falsely arresting people?

None

> Do they suffer any consequences, or do they suffer no punishment for this injustice?

No punishment.

replies(4): >>JSavag+51 >>voxic1+D2 >>pionar+E5 >>antonc+x8
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3. JSavag+51[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 14:58:01
>>monoca+z
That's horrifying. Why don't we change the law?
replies(5): >>camgun+H1 >>monoca+X1 >>mcherm+1c >>ATsch+df >>bityar+Kr
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4. camgun+H1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:00:49
>>JSavag+51
Courts are normally extremely deferential to law enforcement. Coupled with the fact that increasing oversight or increasing restrictions on law enforcement leads to a barrage of "soft on crime" political attack ads, and you get what we have today.
replies(1): >>Anthon+OB
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5. monoca+X1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:02:01
>>JSavag+51
Because we have decades of it being political suicide to not be "tough on crime".

Obviously cops only act in good faith, so any restrictions on them are restrictions on getting criminals off the street. </s>

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6. voxic1+D2[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:05:08
>>monoca+z
Note also that 24 hours usually doesn't include Sundays and holidays, often Saturdays are excluded as well. Meaning if you get arrested before a long weekend it could be 4 days before anyone legally has to consider releasing or charging you.
replies(1): >>kindat+b9
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7. pionar+E5[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:19:07
>>monoca+z
> Cops can hold you for some amount of time, generally around 24 hours without cause.

This is simply not true. Police may not keep you detained if they do not have probable cause or reasonable suspicion that you have committed a crime. However, in real life, they do this sometimes, even though it's been ruled unconstitutional.

They do occasionally face repercussions. Thousands of civil rights lawsuits are settled quietly around the country every year, and some go to court and establish precedents, such as Turner v. Driver.

They don't suffer consequences enough, though, and depend on citizens not knowing that what the police are doing is wrong. It's also difficult due to the "thin blue line" BS where cops are elevated above the rest of society.

replies(3): >>kindat+07 >>monoca+G8 >>mdpope+5g
8. kfrzco+j6[view] [source] 2020-05-29 15:21:36
>>JSavag+(OP)
Edit: I'm wrong, the video I had seen was slightly abridged.

The video camera turns on while they were (likely) already told they will be arrested. They were perhaps ordered to move and did not move. The National Guard and state troopers in that particular area (< 15 miles from me) started ordering people to disperse or face arrest. I don't believe that press are exempt from this order especially when a state of emergency is declared.

Downvoters: please add comment why, or else this isn't discourse

replies(3): >>elil17+H9 >>JSavag+0b >>kaitai+gk
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9. kindat+07[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:24:04
>>pionar+E5
They also depend on citizens not having the financial or time resources to sue.
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10. antonc+x8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:30:43
>>monoca+z
> Cops can hold you for some amount of time, generally around 24 hours without cause.

This isn't totally true, at least not for the casual use of "cause". Cops must have "reasonable suspicion"[1][2] to detain, during that detainment they can discover more information which creates "probable cause", and probable cause allows them to arrest.

My guess is they were arrested for what is commonly called "resisting arrest"[3]. The way resisting arrest laws are unfortunately written, obstructing an officer in their duty is enough, they don't have to actually be resisting arrest. Basically of the cops told the CNN crew to get off the street, and the crew didn't, that would be "resisting arrest".

Minnesota's law:

> obstructs, resists, or interferes with a peace officer while the officer is engaged in the performance of official duties

Note that they were arrested, you can hear an officer say they are under arrest, but they haven't been charged or convicted. I doubt they will be charged. It is up to the county district attorney to press charges (the same DA who isn't pressing charges against the officer who killed George Floyd).

The press in the US are usually given a lot of freedom, and are allowed to be in places that the police don't allow regular citizens (riots areas, wildfire areas, etc.).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion

[2] https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-reasonable-susp...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resisting_arrest

replies(1): >>heracl+g9
11. brudge+C8[view] [source] 2020-05-29 15:30:55
>>JSavag+(OP)
How is it legal

Police carry guns. Legal is not relevant.

replies(1): >>Lyndsy+zI
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12. monoca+G8[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:31:13
>>pionar+E5
> This is simply not true. Police may not keep you detained if they do not have probable cause or reasonable suspicion that you have committed a crime. However, in real life, they do this sometimes, even though it's been ruled unconstitutional.

They don't have to charge you, so they don't have to prove it.

> They don't suffer consequences enough, though, and depend on citizens not knowing that what the police are doing is wrong. It's also difficult due to the "thin blue line" BS where cops are elevated above the rest of society.

The police themselves hardly ever face consequences; the settlements come from the taxpayer.

replies(2): >>pionar+t9 >>umurko+1g
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13. kindat+b9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:33:33
>>voxic1+D2
And then sometimes they forget that you're there

"Daniel Chong Drank Urine To Survive 5 Days In Holding Cell Without Food, Water"

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/daniel-chong-dea-urine-cell-5...

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14. heracl+g9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:33:56
>>antonc+x8
In this case, in the video, Jimenez asks the police whether they'd like him to move somewhere else, they don't respond, and then they arrest him, so it is quite hard to justify the claim that they were resisting arrest even on that definition.
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15. pionar+t9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:34:51
>>monoca+G8
They actually do have to articulate their PC. If they don't, again, you can sue for civil rights violations. Not saying it doesn't happen, it does, but it's not correct to say they're "allowed to".
replies(1): >>monoca+kb
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16. elil17+H9[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:35:56
>>kfrzco+j6
Actually they had been filming continuously, and they had been previously told by police to stand where they were standing, and they had received no new instructions from the police since then, and there was an all-white group of reporters standing in a similar position on the other side of the police who did not get arrested. I understand the desire to come up with an explanation for what happened, I really do, but the fact of the matter is that police arrested these reporters for no reason.
replies(1): >>corrup+ym
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17. JSavag+0b[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:40:30
>>kfrzco+j6
There were never ordered to move, it's all captured on film in that video. When the reporter asked "why am I being arrested?" the cop refused to even answer.
replies(1): >>LorenP+Sr
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18. monoca+kb[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:41:35
>>pionar+t9
They have 24 hours to articulate that or let you go.
replies(1): >>pas+DK
19. coffee+lb[view] [source] 2020-05-29 15:41:39
>>JSavag+(OP)
It isn't legal. There will be a civil suit, and the city will likely settle for a dollar amount covered by their insurance.
replies(1): >>apta+3j1
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20. mcherm+1c[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:44:25
>>JSavag+51
Consider how one goes about changing a law. Generally it starts with citizens making a fuss to inform their elected representatives that they think the existing laws need to be changed.

Recently, in Minnesota, hundreds of people gathered in a protest on precisely this topic. They gathered to say (for their elected representatives and everyone else to hear) that they wanted a change to the laws and the system that permits police officers to kill people by kneeling on their neck when attempting to arrest them.

It was during this very protest that the CNN reporters were arrested.

So, as you can see, people are trying to solve that problem. They have been protesting loudly about it for the past decade (much longer, in truth, but there has been a renewed focus by the media within the past decade). And so far... well, you tell me whether you think it's working.

replies(1): >>JSavag+ql4
21. bargl+re[view] [source] 2020-05-29 15:55:19
>>JSavag+(OP)
Police can break the law too. An officer's actions may or may not be legal and that's determined after the fact in a court of law.

This doesn't happen all the time, but when police do break the law, or don't follow it correctly their actions come under scrutiny, data collected can be discarded from court, and even suffer personal blowback.

What you're asking is how did it happen? That's because it's illegal for a citizen to resist arrest (even unlawful arrest), so in the USA if you are being arrested, SAY you do not willingly submit, but DO whatever the officer tells you.

The thing many people forget is that the law doesn't happen just on the street in the US. It is a slow and flawed process, but police are just the front line of it, not the whole thing.

As someone else said, this will probably cost the police and city in a settlement.

Edit: Cops CANNOT just hold you for 24 hours. They have to have something to charge you with even if it's disorderly conduct. And you can then sue the local police if you have evidence that you were wrongly imprisoned. It is easy for cops to get cause so your chances of this are low, but it does happen. Once detained (with cause) I believe the 24 hour bit is true.

IANAL, this is based on my unprofessional research. I'd suggest you (everyone) do the same.

replies(3): >>monoca+jf >>abeppu+Bi >>wnoise+LX
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22. ATsch+df[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:58:17
>>JSavag+51
Nobody has rioted hard enough so far and most of the victims of this law are not white.
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23. monoca+jf[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 15:58:28
>>bargl+re
> As someone else said, this will probably cost the police and city in a settlement.

It probably won't cost the police anything, it'll come out of the taxpayer.

replies(3): >>bargl+2g >>mc32+mh >>iso163+kV
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24. umurko+1g[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:00:49
>>monoca+G8
Burden of proof is different for detaining, arrest and when in court if one is charged.

They have to have PC to arrest someone. Even if you're not charged, PC has to be there for an arrest to be justified.

replies(1): >>Drip33+7y
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25. bargl+2g[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:00:49
>>monoca+jf
Cities can cut jobs, fire police, put police on notice etc. You might not feel like that is enough, but you better believe that any officer who costs the police money is going to be punished. Maybe not equally to someone else but that's not what I was saying.
replies(1): >>monoca+On
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26. mdpope+5g[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:00:53
>>pionar+E5
> Police may not keep you detained if they do not have probable cause...

I believe this is called a distinction without difference. The police can always say you behaved suspiciously or they felt threatened by you. You can also be found guilty of resisting arrest, even if there was no reason for the arrest except that you were resisting it.

replies(1): >>Lendal+bj
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27. mc32+mh[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:05:38
>>monoca+jf
Not dissimilar to someone accused of harassment at work. It’s most typical the company pays and not the offender. People go after the money.
replies(1): >>monoca+9o
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28. abeppu+Bi[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:10:32
>>bargl+re
My understanding was in many states, the guideline for holding someone without a charge was generally 72 hours (where weekends and holidays can extend that period; prosecutors' right to not work weekends is more important than any of your rights ...), with a range of exceptions open for abuse (e.g. hold you for 48 hours, decide you're acting strangely and need a psychiatric hold, etc).
replies(1): >>bargl+Qm
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29. Lendal+bj[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:12:25
>>mdpope+5g
And cops know this and will verbally threaten you with it. I've had it happen to me. The cop actually said to me during a traffic stop he could arrest me for resisting arrest. I don't know why he said that. I guess I was not showing sufficient gratitude for the ticket he was writing me. I was being respectful, even though I knew of no law requiring me to be respectful to cops. That was over 20 years ago. It's nothing new.
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30. kaitai+gk[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:16:10
>>kfrzco+j6
Yeah, not to pile on... but you're being downvoted because what you say is simply false.
31. corrup+Pl[view] [source] 2020-05-29 16:21:45
>>JSavag+(OP)
What is far more disturbing than a reporter ignoring police orders and facing the repercussions is that a city is burning from mindless violence, this violence encouraged by a media and other prominent figures that relish in stoking racial tensions by selective reporting and misrepresentation of facts.
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32. corrup+ym[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:24:48
>>elil17+H9
While it may be tempting to jump to a racial interpretation of the arrest, it appears that the CNN reporters were just standing in the wrong place and in the chaos of the moment were arrested.
replies(3): >>wtalli+co >>elil17+Ap >>mturmo+nD
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33. bargl+Qm[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:25:53
>>abeppu+Bi
You are probably right. I don't think they have to charge you, but they do have to have cause. If there is video that they detained you without cause. I may have gotten my terms mixed up. In my understanding. Cause, is suspicion of a crime (disorderly conduct and resisting arrest are most commonly abused). Charge is the documentation of an accusation from the police of you breaking a law. The police also have to (are supposed to) document this interaction even if they don't charge you with a crime.
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34. monoca+On[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:30:22
>>bargl+2g
> Cities can cut jobs, fire police

They can, but they don't because it would be political suicide.

replies(1): >>bargl+Qo
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35. monoca+9o[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:32:39
>>mc32+mh
You don't get protected from criminal actions because you committed them at work though.
replies(1): >>mc32+To
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36. wtalli+co[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:33:09
>>corrup+ym
> and in the chaos of the moment were arrested

What chaos? The scene shown in the video looks really calm, with one protester, several reporters, and a very large number of police standing around apparently doing nothing more than looking intimidating at that moment.

replies(1): >>corrup+Gp
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37. bargl+Qo[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:36:39
>>monoca+On
https://www.wtae.com/article/police-department-shuts-down-af...

Can and does. I'm not saying this is indicative of what frequently happens. But there can be real consequences for the police officers based on lawsuits. I also recognize this was not being pushed down from the city. My statement was an example of how police departments shutting down affect police and how that can happen.

I won't argue that police are appropriately punished due to misconduct. I will argue that they are punished.

replies(1): >>monoca+Jq
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38. mc32+To[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:37:06
>>monoca+9o
Depends on the union.
replies(1): >>monoca+Vq
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39. elil17+Ap[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:39:43
>>corrup+ym
I hope that anyone seeing this situation and thinking, “I’m not sure how race plays into this,” will go back and learn some more about the history of race in America. I think a good starting place is the podcast “1619” which does a really good job investigating where racial problems in America came from.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/23/podcasts/1619-podcast.htm...

Perhaps it’s naïve of me to think people will want to learn about what it really means to be Black in America. But I think if you really listen to what history is saying and really listen to what Black people are experiencing right now it will change how you think about events like this.

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40. corrup+Gp[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:39:59
>>wtalli+co
Perhaps chaos isn't the best word. Hightened tension is more appropriate.
replies(1): >>colejo+uI1
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41. monoca+Jq[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:44:01
>>bargl+Qo
The closure of a two man police department when both of them got caught at the same time isn't really a great example.

In a larger department, neither would have lost their jobs, and the larger insurance would have handled it.

replies(1): >>bargl+OK
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42. monoca+Vq[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:44:48
>>mc32+To
No, it doesn't.
replies(1): >>mc32+Ar
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43. mc32+Ar[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:48:05
>>monoca+Vq
So sexual harassment isn’t a crime? And Unions have never defended members?
replies(1): >>monoca+9t
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44. bityar+Kr[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:48:38
>>JSavag+51
Laws that give the police _less_ power are generally written in blood. Meaning, there has to be a pattern of clear and obvious abuse for any change to happen. For instance, the now near-ubiqitous police body cams are a result of multiple well-publicized unprovoked beatings and murders.

The reason for this is that no politician is going to willingly step up for more police oversight and restricted powers, for at least a couple of reasons:

1) They will be painted by their opponents as "weak on crime" or even "supporting criminals" at election time.

2) They risk losing votes from emergency services workers, which are quite a large demographic in local elections.

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45. LorenP+Sr[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:49:21
>>JSavag+0b
Everyone was ordered to move out of the area. They were asking for specific instructions on where to move to and didn't get them because there was no answer to that--the police didn't want them out of the way, they wanted the whole crowd gone.
replies(1): >>monoca+Ou
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46. monoca+9t[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 16:55:01
>>mc32+Ar
Most workplace sexual harassment isn't a criminal offence, no.

Sexual assault is, and there's nothing a union can do to protect you from that.

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47. monoca+Ou[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 17:02:55
>>LorenP+Sr
The other CNN crew was told that they were fine where they were. The press were absolutely allowed to be there.
48. parlia+8x[view] [source] 2020-05-29 17:13:42
>>JSavag+(OP)
>repercussions

For police? In the US? Very funny.

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49. Drip33+7y[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 17:17:51
>>umurko+1g
They can detain you briefly for something as simple as wearing jeans if someone committed a crime while wearing jeans but typically this is only for a handful of minutes. These reporters were fully arrested which is a different standard as you've written already.
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50. Anthon+OB[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 17:34:02
>>camgun+H1
The "soft on crime thing" was a lot more effective in the 90s when there was a lot more actual crime and so people were more afraid of it.

At this point I'm basically waiting for a politician to adopt "soft on crime" as a campaign slogan and rebrand it as a rehabilitation program where you turn drug dealers into docile flower shop owners as opposed to opponents who "make crime tough" by sending people to "crime school" prisons and turning them into hardened career criminals with switchblades and facial tattoos.

The real problem is the same as it is in general -- special interest groups (in this case police and prison guard unions and private prison companies) are the ones who spend the most effort lobbying on the issue. It also doesn't help at all when we disenfranchise "convicts" because we're then disenfranchising the victims of the system whenever it makes a mistake (which is often).

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51. mturmo+nD[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 17:41:55
>>corrup+ym
You have just scolded the above commenter for jumping to a racial interpretation, and then jumped to an opposite conclusion yourself, on the basis of no evidence.
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52. Lyndsy+zI[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 18:02:26
>>brudge+C8
That's... silly. I carry a gun, too, but I don't go around arbitrarily forcing my will on others.

The difference is "qualified immunity", not weaponry.

replies(1): >>wnoise+MY
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53. pas+DK[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 18:11:26
>>monoca+kb
They still have to explain why you have been detained, right?
replies(2): >>monoca+aM >>thejyn+SS
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54. bargl+OK[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 18:12:06
>>monoca+Jq
I'm not going to scour the internet for these examples... I found one in 5 minutes. I assume there are more out there that would require me to spend more time than I'm willing to make the point.

You said doesn't happen. An absolute. I am saying it can happen and it's not the only form of punishment I'm referring to.

Police (the individuals) can be punished for their infractions. It doesn't happen nearly often enough (my opinion). But if you're saying it can't/won't happen I disagree with you. I'd even go so far as to say I believe you to be factually incorrect. While I will 100% change my opinion on this if given a study that proves this has never happened. It's easier for me to assert a shmeybe than for you to assert it never happens. All I need is one instance where as you need none.

Now if you want to say, that's not enough. We won't disagree at all.

55. steveh+SK[view] [source] 2020-05-29 18:12:27
>>JSavag+(OP)
If the apparent penalty for murdering a member of the public is only getting fired, I can't see anyone higher up in authority giving a rat's @rse if an officer just grabs someone and arrests them without warning.
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56. monoca+aM[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 18:19:01
>>pas+DK
No
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57. thejyn+SS[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 18:51:51
>>pas+DK
From my experience having been arrested and held like this before: No. They don't even have to attest to probable cause until the 24-hr limit hits, in which case they will then formally arrest you by taking you to be fingerprinted, a reading of Miranda, etc along with paperwork containing the attestation of probable cause, or let you go, again, with a pile of paperwork, and sometimes both, in which case they arrest you formally, give you paperwork, and an issued summons to appear in court before sending you on your way.
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58. iso163+kV[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 19:02:18
>>monoca+jf
It would make far more sense to take the costs out of the police pension pot, either the city pot (if it's a systematic problem) or the individual pot (if it's a "bad apple")
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59. wnoise+LX[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 19:14:35
>>bargl+re
> That's because it's illegal for a citizen to resist arrest (even unlawful arrest),

This varies state-by-state, actually. Even in those where it is legal, it is very foolish, of course.

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60. wnoise+MY[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 19:20:04
>>Lyndsy+zI
Qualified immunity only matters for civil suits under 42 USC 1983.

Cops ultimately aren't disciplined because there's no political will. And there's no consequences on the ground because they have more weapons, and importantly ready backup from other cops.

If you were in a gang, and carried a gun, you could indeed arbitrarily force your will on others for some time.

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61. apta+3j1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-29 21:12:51
>>coffee+lb
Paid for by taxes.
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62. colejo+uI1[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-30 00:19:33
>>corrup+Gp
Heightened tension is not an excuse to arrest someone. Police (in theory) exist to lower tension, not add to it.
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63. JSavag+ql4[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-05-31 04:56:06
>>mcherm+1c
Seems like our political system is broken then.

If the public so adamantly wants laws that elected representatives refuse to pass, then it seems that enabling direct democracy would be one solution to getting these laws passed.

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