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1. qubex+(OP)[view] [source] 2020-04-26 21:37:17
I find most explanations of the Equivalence Principle that lies at the foundation of General Relativity to be very lax.

To wit, the idea is that you cannot distinguish whether you are in an accelerated frame or in a gravitational field; alternatively stated, if you’re floating around in an elevator you don’t know whether you’re freefalling to your doom or in deep sideral space far from any gravitational source (though of course, since you’re in an elevator car and apparently freefalling... I think we’d all agree on what’s most likely, but I digress).

Anyway, what irks me that this is most definitely not true at the “thought experiment” level of theoretical thinking: if you had two baseballs with you in that freefalling lift, you could suspend them in front of you. If you were in deep space, they’d stay equidistant; if you were freefalling down a shaft, you’d see them move closer because of tidal effects dictated by the fact that they’re each falling towards the earth’s centre of gravity, and therefore at (very slightly) different angles.

Of course, they’d be moving slightly toward each other in both cases (because they attract gravitationally) but the tidal effect presents is additional and present in only one scenario, allowing one to (theoretically) distinguish, apparently violating the bedrock Equivalence Principle.

I never see this point raised anywhere and I find it quite distressing, because I’m sure there’s a very simple explanation and that General Relativity is sound under such trivial constructions, but I haven’t been able to find a decent explanation.

replies(12): >>ben0x5+O >>ironma+61 >>knzhou+n2 >>anonyt+G2 >>siddbo+X2 >>contra+l3 >>guerri+A7 >>mehrda+D7 >>grayca+ib >>abeced+vl >>qubex+kG >>sysrpl+i31
2. ben0x5+O[view] [source] 2020-04-26 21:44:16
>>qubex+(OP)
I'm gonna assume that for purposes of the thought experiment you're supposed to envision a point-shaped elevator, not one where you can place two baseballs next to each other.
3. ironma+61[view] [source] 2020-04-26 21:46:25
>>qubex+(OP)
I think the elevator scenario is imagining that the earth is a point source, and you are neglecting the (much smaller) gravitational forces for the sake of illustrating a more general phenomenon.
4. knzhou+n2[view] [source] 2020-04-26 21:57:55
>>qubex+(OP)
You're right that this is glossed over in popular explanations, but the point you make is exactly the starting point for all formal courses and textbooks.

The first part of the argument is that for single point particles falling, the effect of gravity is the same for all particles. This suggests that we should model gravity as something intrinsic to spacetime itself, rather than as a field living on top of spacetime, which could couple to different particles with different strengths.

The second part of the argument, which is what you point out, is that gravity can have nontrivial tidal effects. (This had better be true, because if all gravitational effects were just equivalent to a trivial uniform acceleration, then it would be so boring that we wouldn't need a theory of gravity at all!) This suggests that whatever property of spacetime we use to model gravity, it should reduce in the Newtonian limit to something that looks like a tidal effect, i.e. a gradient of the Newtonian gravitational field. That leads directly to the idea of describing gravity as the curvature of spacetime.

So both parts of the argument give important information (both historically and pedagogically). Both parts are typically presented in good courses, but only the first half makes it to the popular explanations, probably out of simplification.

replies(1): >>bollu+Hw
5. anonyt+G2[view] [source] 2020-04-26 21:59:21
>>qubex+(OP)
> you’d see them move closer because of tidal effects dictated by the fact that they’re each falling towards the earth’s centre of gravity, and therefore at (very slightly) different angles.

This point isn't raised anywhere because it's mostly a pedantic point that has nothing to do with the thought experiment. You shouldn't try and decompose thought experiments literally, otherwise you'll get caught up in unimportant details like this. Just assume the elevator is close enough to the earth such that the field lines are effectively parallel, or better yet, just pretend the elevator is in an infinite plate field.

replies(1): >>Jabavu+Tk
6. siddbo+X2[view] [source] 2020-04-26 22:01:45
>>qubex+(OP)
The elevator car is a thought experiment that draws attention to the equivalence in sensation of acceleration on one hand, and being in a uniform gravitational field on the other hand. As you correctly point out, this particular thought experiment breaks down when you consider that all of the gravitational fields that we are accustomed to are non-uniform, and have apparent tidal forces.

The real principle of relativity is a bit more subtle (sometimes called the strong principle): that the effects of gravity can be explained entirely at the level of local geometry, without any need for non-local interaction from the distant body that is generating the gravitational field. To describe the geometry of non-uniform fields, we need more sophisticated mathematical machinery than what is implied by the elevator car thought experiment, but nonetheless, the elevator example is a useful launching point for that type of inquiry.

7. contra+l3[view] [source] 2020-04-26 22:05:47
>>qubex+(OP)
Yeah the problem is that that the equivalence principle is a _local_ property that cannot really be expressed precisely in standard English.

Clearly it will fail given a big enough lift to experiment in, since a big enough lift would essentially include whatever object is creating that gravitational pull (or enough to conclude its existence from other phenomena). However these effects are nonlocal, you need two different points of reference for them to work (like your two baseballs). In fact most Tidal forces are almost by definition nonlocal.

The precise definition involves describing curved spacetime and geodesics, but that one is really hard to visualize as a thought experiment. The thought experiment does offer insight though, as it is possible to imagine that, absent significant local variations in gravity, you cannot distinguish between free-fall and a (classical) inertial frame of reference without gravity. This insight provides the missing link that allows you to combine gravity with the laws of special relativity and therefore electromechanics, including the way light bends around heavy objects, which provided one of the first confirmations of this theory.

8. guerri+A7[view] [source] 2020-04-26 22:42:03
>>qubex+(OP)
This was covered on PBS Space Time in an early episode on GR and talked about later as well.
9. mehrda+D7[view] [source] 2020-04-26 22:42:31
>>qubex+(OP)
The assumption is the acceleration and the gravitation are in the same direction and the same magnitude. The point is that given these two, it's impossible to distinguish the two.

If you think it's sneaky to "implicitly" assume they're in the same direction, I would point out that this is no different from assuming they have the same magnitude. It would be kinda dumb to say "well this 1m/s^2 acceleration can't possibly be equivalent to gravity because gravity is 9.8m/s^2, so the statement is obviously wrong and they're trying to trick me!!"... same thing for direction.

10. grayca+ib[view] [source] 2020-04-26 23:14:19
>>qubex+(OP)
I have two quite bright nieces. When I was explaining the equivalence principle to them, right away they saw that in the gravitational field of the earth there would be tidal effects and in free space with just acceleration, none.

I had to apologize and say that the explanation was over simplified and really it would work, say, only for some creatures living exactly on the floor of the elevator.

One of the two, at a challenging high school, made Valedictorian (surprise to her parents who didn't know she had long been first in her class) then in college PBK, got her law degree at Harvard, started at Cravath-Swain, went for an MD, and now is practicing medicine. Bright niece.

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11. Jabavu+Tk[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-27 00:41:05
>>anonyt+G2
But then again, realizing this problem with the thought experiment is a mark of a sophisticated student. This was the last question on my physics exam in 1991, and I still regret that I went with the simple explanation. I wonder whether the prof was looking for the students who really got it.
12. abeced+vl[view] [source] 2020-04-27 00:48:27
>>qubex+(OP)
http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/einstein/
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13. bollu+Hw[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-27 03:05:02
>>knzhou+n2
> it should reduce in the Newtonian limit to something that looks like a tidal effect, i.e. a gradient of the Newtonian gravitational field.

Can you please explain to me how you went from"looks like a tidal effect in the Newtonian limit" to "a gradient of the Newtonian Graviational field"?

replies(1): >>knzhou+Ry
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14. knzhou+Ry[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-27 03:31:59
>>bollu+Hw
"Tidal effects" are defined in terms of having different gravitational fields in one place than another (i.e. the tidal bulge near to the moon occurs because the moon's field is stronger there).
replies(1): >>rocqua+qN
15. qubex+kG[view] [source] 2020-04-27 05:22:49
>>qubex+(OP)
I wanted to thank everybody who took the time to explain this. Thank you.
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16. rocqua+qN[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-27 06:57:44
>>knzhou+Ry
That's not quite true, as illustrated by the tidal bulge opposite the moon.

Tidal forces occur much more due to the difference in the direction of gravity than due to the difference in magnitude.

17. sysrpl+i31[view] [source] 2020-04-27 10:21:55
>>qubex+(OP)
To me, the layperson, the idea that you cannot distinguish whether you are in an accelerated frame or in a gravitational field seems wrong due to a very simple fact.

The force that would be exerted from acceleration versus gravity is different. The force you we think of as gravity comes from a center point that changes with your position while acceleration comes from a uniform direction without regard to your position.

replies(1): >>martop+O31
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18. martop+O31[view] [source] [discussion] 2020-04-27 10:30:36
>>sysrpl+i31
You're thinking of a specific gravity scenario versus a specific acceleration scenario. But the equivalence is true, it was one of the things shown by Einstein.
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