zlacker

[parent] [thread] 43 comments
1. patio1+(OP)[view] [source] 2014-06-12 19:18:58
So an informal non-aggression pact is nice, but absolutely no automobile manufacturer would rely on that when a new car costs a significant fraction of a billion dollars to bring to market. (If I were a cynical man, I might think this didn't escape their notice.)

If it were me, and the true intent was to distribute the Tesla patents as widely as possible, I would have said "Tesla pledges to license its entire patent portfolio, on a worldwide non-exclusive no-royalty basis, to any interested party. We will ask for consideration in the amount of $1 for a 99 year license. Your lawyers and accountants can reassure you that these sort of symbolic commitments hold up in court. They'll also no doubt ask to see the full terms, which are about as boring as you'd expect, and which are available from our Legal Department."

replies(6): >>andrew+K1 >>chc+Q1 >>generi+K2 >>slante+ye >>burnte+Om >>kalleb+Ls
2. andrew+K1[view] [source] 2014-06-12 19:38:58
>>patio1+(OP)
If I were Tesla, I'd also request that the licensing party grant a reciprocal bulk license to Tesla as well. Or, barring that, that Tesla reserves the right to revoke the license if you initiate a patent lawsuit against it.
replies(3): >>yonran+u3 >>fab13n+HB >>mathat+YP
3. chc+Q1[view] [source] 2014-06-12 19:40:34
>>patio1+(OP)
It seems to me that this press release was meant to invite interested parties to contact Tesla's legal department, though it didn't say so explicitly. If I ran a car company and saw this, that's what I would do, which I'm sure also didn't escape Tesla's notice. This press release seems more about announcing and explaining Tesla's intentions rather than acting as a binding agreement for a multibillion-dollar megacorp.
replies(2): >>mathat+yr >>higher+fD
4. generi+K2[view] [source] 2014-06-12 19:54:00
>>patio1+(OP)
I saw the press release as more directed towards average automobile buyers. As a "We will not be the ones preventing your favorite Automobile manufacturer from producing an Electric Car in the style you want, and neither will the research cost of the technologies we use".

I believe the message was phrased in a way to be directed at consumers so that hopefully the consumers will send a message one way or another to the other manufacturers causing them to come to more official agreements with Tesla. (which will of course have terms).

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5. yonran+u3[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-12 20:03:23
>>andrew+K1
Does there exist such a patent license with no security holes? I would imagine that it would read, “License will be revoked if you 1) Sue me for patent infringement. 2) Sell a patent to a company that sues me for patent infringement (like Intellectual Ventures does). 3) Sponsor the development of a patent, and the owner of the patent sues me for patent infringement. 4) Contract with a patent pool that sues me for patent infringement. 5) Sue my partners or customers for patent infringement (like Apple vs. Google’s partners)...” and so on ad infinitum.
replies(3): >>stcred+j4 >>bshank+77 >>thegeo+6p
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6. stcred+j4[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-12 20:19:10
>>yonran+u3
One would also have clauses to ensure that the products/devices produced under license would not be designed for lock-in and be compatible with electric cars from other companies.
replies(1): >>seanp2+5b
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7. bshank+77[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-12 20:53:47
>>yonran+u3
http://www.defensivepatentlicense.com/

(i'm not asserting it is perfect, just that it is an effort towards what you describe)

replies(1): >>Anthon+sc
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8. seanp2+5b[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-12 21:39:26
>>stcred+j4
Interesting; almost like a "SA" license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/ but for product compatibility.
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9. Anthon+sc[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-12 21:53:06
>>bshank+77
It's an interesting attempt. The problem I'm seeing is that it seems to do nothing about non-practicing entities, or to prevent the sort of thing Microsoft et al have done with Rockstar, essentially paying to license a bunch of questionable patents with the foreseeable effect of giving the non-practicing entity enough cash to create a menace for their competitors.

What could be an interesting solution is to prevent people who want the protection of the mutual license from licensing patents from anyone else under any other terms. So if you want the protection of the license and a patent troll approaches you, your only choice is to either vanquish the troll or buy the patent outright and immunize everyone.

That should mean no more Rockstars at least, and should make life more difficult for trolls because they couldn't license patents anymore, only sell them outright.

replies(3): >>pyre+Pi >>sjwrig+Rt >>tlrobi+u51
10. slante+ye[view] [source] 2014-06-12 22:21:49
>>patio1+(OP)
It's basically a statement of intent, and there's no reason to believe they don't mean what they say. Hopefully this leads to progressed innovation.
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11. pyre+Pi[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-12 23:23:38
>>Anthon+sc
> Microsoft et al have done with Rockstar

It is my understanding that Rockstar existed prior to Microsoft and others getting involved. They merely footed the bill.

replies(2): >>Anthon+Rk >>nitrog+kv
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12. Anthon+Rk[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-12 23:57:58
>>pyre+Pi
Pretty sure that's what I said. Is that supposed to absolve them?
replies(2): >>pyre+mx >>throwa+gR
13. burnte+Om[view] [source] 2014-06-13 00:30:32
>>patio1+(OP)
Nothing stops any company from now going to Tesla, aware that Tesla is open to a highly favorable licensing agreement, and propose just such a move.
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14. thegeo+6p[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 01:23:29
>>yonran+u3
I doubt that Elon Musk would do something like this without heavy consultation with Tesla Motors' legal team.
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15. mathat+yr[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 02:14:14
>>chc+Q1
Exactly. The car companies are all adults. I think this signals, "Let's go down a road where we don't wind up suing each other like the internet companies" This doesn't diminish the impact of what they're doing, but there's a practical side.
replies(1): >>akerl_+Xr
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16. akerl_+Xr[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 02:23:11
>>mathat+yr
You say this like the people working for and running "the internet companies" aren't adults. Being over an age threshold doesn't have any connection to acting as a benevolent member of society, and all companies, including Tesla and Comcast and Apple and Wawa and Chipotle, are in business to make profits.
replies(2): >>nitrog+dv >>mathat+JP
17. kalleb+Ls[view] [source] 2014-06-13 02:48:26
>>patio1+(OP)
Isn't there a precedent? Volvo opening up the three-point seatbelt patents. Does anyone know the particulars of how that worked? My google-fu is weak, all I can find are articles that sound like PR.
replies(1): >>msiebu+rE
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18. sjwrig+Rt[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 03:14:33
>>Anthon+sc
> it seems to do nothing about non-practicing entities

It doesn't do anything about non-practicing entities because it can't. There's no formulation of words that could cause a license to have any bearing on NPEs.

Your potential wording would make the patent license completely unusable. Perhaps an alternative might be something along the lines of: You may not license a patent that has been involved in legal dispute. If a licensed patent is subsequently involved in legal dispute, either this license or that license must be terminated within NN months.

replies(2): >>nitrog+jv >>Anthon+Xw
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19. nitrog+dv[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 03:56:13
>>akerl_+Xr
Quoting a good but dead comment for visibility:

citrik 10 minutes ago | link [dead]

I don't think the "in business to make profits" part is entirely true. Apple and Tesla are both leading examples of companies that are out for something other than profits first. You can say that shareholder interests and publicly traded companies require ... but at the end of the day those are two companies that don't let capitalist dogma drive their path. I wish there were more than a handful.

-----

replies(2): >>akerl_+aw >>leemca+Jw
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20. nitrog+jv[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 03:58:37
>>sjwrig+Rt
It doesn't do anything about non-practicing entities because it can't.

I think AnthonyMouse's comment was referring to NPEs that were sponsored by a practicing entity that is subject to a reciprocal license. An effective such license would have to restrict participants from indirectly funding attacks that would be violations of their agreement if they carried out the attacks themselves.

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21. nitrog+kv[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 03:59:28
>>pyre+Pi
What was Rockstar's business before the patent purchase? Or was Rockstar a shelf company?
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22. akerl_+aw[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 04:25:33
>>nitrog+dv
What are Apple and Tesla trying for, if not profits? Both are certainly great at leveraging marketing and PR announcements like this to appear as some kind of shining pillar of goodness, but at the end of the day they're both businesses.

Related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yowHM6nqu60

replies(2): >>nitrog+sw >>ejain+kz
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23. nitrog+sw[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 04:33:26
>>akerl_+aw
Saying that all corporations are equally trying for profits above all else is kind of like saying that the only purpose of living is reproducing. It grossly oversimplifies the situation, despite the fact that some corporations do seem to focus only on profit, and some humans to focus only on reproduction.
replies(1): >>akerl_+dx
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24. leemca+Jw[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 04:41:19
>>nitrog+dv
I've always thought that Apple is driven by wanting to control its own destiny and not have the short term interests of the market dictate its decisions. That's why it is stockpiling cash and hesitating to pay it out to its shareholders.

Apple and Tesla just want to make great stuff. Not just great, esoteric stuff, but products that are also accessible to the mainstream. The profits are just a way of keeping score and giving them options for the future.

They're kind of like the Beatles, who as an organization always knew how to do things big commercially. But commerce is never what drove The Beatles. They understood that winning in the marketplace gave them more leeway to dream bigger and bigger.

It's easy to say, "why would a company want to exist besides to make profit?" But I think a company can be a creative outlet for its employees and shareholders, just like any other medium. The profits just ensure they have more creative control in the future.

replies(3): >>nitrog+jx >>akerl_+ox >>Rapzid+aD
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25. Anthon+Xw[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 04:46:59
>>sjwrig+Rt
> It doesn't do anything about non-practicing entities because it can't. There's no formulation of words that could cause a license to have any bearing on NPEs.

That isn't true at all. You can do something about NPEs by changing the behavior of their targets. You take away the ability to license a patent without securing a license for everyone and now the troll can no longer rely on extracting nuisance value settlements from large numbers of targets, because for the target the cost of losing the reciprocal license (and having to fight all of those patent holders) now exceeds the cost of invalidating the troll's patent. And if everyone sees the same calculus and everyone fights, trolling as a business model could become unprofitable.

> Your potential wording would make the patent license completely unusable.

Why is that? The ideal endgame would be to bring about a de facto nullification of software patents. The more patents that become licensed under the defensive license, the more incentive there is to put all of your own patents under it, which creates all the more incentive for others to do the same. Obviously you wouldn't have e.g. IBM signing on the first day, but as it snowballs the incentive to do so increases over time. At the end of the chain you would have a situation where there would be ten times as many patents that IBM is infringing than they own and the only way they could get a license to those patents is to join the agreement with everyone else.

I would think another interesting feature would be to allow anyone who has signed on to the agreement to use any of the signatories' patents offensively against anyone who hasn't, in exchange for a large chunk of the proceeds, essentially on a contingent fee basis. I believe a third of the amount recovered is typical? That would allow patent trolling to eat itself, because patents lawyers could sign on to the agreement at no cost (since they don't characteristically own patents) and then have instant access to a huge corpus of patents to go sue everyone else with, until such time as everyone relevant has signed on. And it would also create an incentive to sign on in the early days, because if you sign on and have any good patents there is a reasonable chance that some lawyers will go out and sue Microsoft et al at their own expense and then give you half the money. Until there are a lot of signatories that should be about as profitable for existing patent holders as hiring a lawyer to go sue people on your behalf without the defensive conditions, unless everybody starts signing on right away, which would be even better.

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26. akerl_+dx[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 04:56:04
>>nitrog+sw
If I had said that, then yes, it would have been quite foolish. But I did not say that all corporations are striving with equal fervor, nor that they focus solely on profit.
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27. nitrog+jx[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 04:58:25
>>leemca+Jw
I've always thought that Apple is driven by wanting to control its own destiny and not have the short term interests of the market dictate its decisions. That's why it is stockpiling cash and hesitating to pay it out to its shareholders.

There are a million reasons why I really want to like Apple. But I can't, because they use mostly trivial patents offensively against their competitors. That's not controlling one's own destiny, that's forcibly imposing one's will on others.

replies(1): >>nitrog+bz
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28. pyre+mx[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 05:00:54
>>Anthon+Rk
Not really, but throwing in for something that already exists is slightly different than creating it in the first place.
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29. akerl_+ox[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 05:02:28
>>leemca+Jw
I believe that the various employees at Apple and Tesla, like lots of employees at lots of companies, are there because they enjoy what they do and want to make and do great things. That includes technical and executive staff.

But the overall business goal is to make money, because unless they're making money they employees will not be able to continue making great things or doing great things.

replies(1): >>chc+Oy
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30. chc+Oy[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 06:03:54
>>akerl_+ox
This seems about as meaningful as saying the employees' overall goal is to eat food, because without food their bodies will not be able to continue doing great things.
replies(1): >>md224+pE
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31. nitrog+bz[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 06:17:24
>>nitrog+jx
It's fascinating how any post even mildly critical of Apple manages to get downvoted.
replies(1): >>corin_+3K
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32. ejain+kz[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 06:20:40
>>akerl_+aw
All companies strive for profits, but some take a more short term view than others.
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33. fab13n+HB[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 07:39:05
>>andrew+K1
> I'd also request that the licensing party grant a reciprocal bulk license to Tesla as well.

That what I thought "in good faith" meant.

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34. Rapzid+aD[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 08:25:27
>>leemca+Jw
I do not think Apple is an exception to the rule that "ALL public companies are out to make money first and foremost". Remember Jobs was outed because they couldn't see his vision? What happened was they then failed and were later sold on his vision bringing them more money so they put him back in charge. So while individuals have a vision, the corporation only sees green. Everything else is a strategy to achieve it. If you believe that, it follows that internet companies sue each other not because they aren't adults, but because patent law is broken and they are, by their nature, obliged to take advantage of it.
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35. higher+fD[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 08:26:25
>>chc+Q1
That's exactly what's happening:

http://www.theverge.com/2014/6/12/5804890/bmw-confirms-that-...

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36. md224+pE[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 09:10:58
>>chc+Oy
Perhaps the point being made was that the individual motives/goals of the employees are irrelevant to assessing the overall motives of the company as a whole. Personally I'd say it's whatever the CEO's goals are, but shared agency is a weird thing.
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37. msiebu+rE[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 09:12:21
>>kalleb+Ls
Wikipedia has the details + references: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seat_belt#Three-point
replies(1): >>corin_+PP
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38. corin_+3K[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 11:49:57
>>nitrog+bz
I'm not a fan of Apple, but down-voted you for the fact that your comment isn't relevant in the chain. Yes, Apple's use of patents sucks and I too hate that, but it's not a contradictory point to the opinion that they "try to control their own destiny", so all you've done is chuck in an anti-Apple issue where it wasn't needed.

Comments like that don't do anything other than push Apple fanboys to champion them even more, followed by Apple haters to criticise them even more.

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39. mathat+JP[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 13:21:16
>>akerl_+Xr
Not implying that the internet company CEOs aren't. It's just that they're in a game where they have to go heavy on IP and patents.

I'm saying that management of Tesla isn't acting like a naive college kid giving away the store. There is a strategy. And the other auto companies will see it for what it is.

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40. corin_+PP[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 13:22:13
>>msiebu+rE
Not really - neither that page nor its referenced sources talk to the point of how they shared it with other companies, just states that it happened.
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41. mathat+YP[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 13:23:23
>>andrew+K1
I don't have any inside information, but I have to believe that this is where they are going with the play. They aren't naive enough to give away the store without anything in return. It's more like, "Let's all share and compete against the carbon-based auto makers" rather than "Here's something you can use against me"
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42. throwa+gR[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 13:39:45
>>Anthon+Rk
Well, yes. Before they bought it up, Rockstar was a menace to everybody. Even before Rockstar, Nortel was calling firms up for licenses, and everyone knew what was coming when the patents went on the auction block. By making the winning bid, MS, Apple et al successfully managed to reduce their own liability.

Now, in a fair competition, that should give them an advantage over others who failed to manage their risks. But the way everyone here behaves, people expect them to just let things lie, effectively footing the bill for the rest of the industry. How's that fair?

replies(1): >>pyre+qg1
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43. tlrobi+u51[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 16:29:07
>>Anthon+sc
A NPE doesn't need your patent because they're non-practicing.
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44. pyre+qg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2014-06-13 18:57:16
>>throwa+gR
> effectively footing the bill for the rest of the industry

Well, they (at least many of them -- e.g. Microsoft, Apple, etc) also 'play the game' with their own patents, so it's not out of character for them to use patents offensively. By using their patents offensively, they are contributing to the situation where they are required to 'foot the bill' with their own liabilities, at least. If they adopted a less aggressive stance, and instead put the money they've spent on lawyers towards lobbying for patent reform, what they 'need' to do to limit their liability might be really different.

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