The death toll is way above this number, you have to consider the fact that Iran is a big country with many small cities, and in my city alone (which is very small and rarely has any protest going on) many people have died (i don’t have the exact numbers but it could be anywhere between 100 to 200) and when you put this into perspective you will understand that in scale of the entire country a lot of people have died.
I have heard that not only they killed people on the street but they have chased those who fled and killded them at their places or hidings, let alone the killing of the injured ones in hospitals.
It’s is a big tragedy and people are reluctant to talk about it because those who are committing this massacre are MUSLIMS and support PALESTINE so this is a moral dilemma for the left lovers! because they see Mullah’s regime as one of their biggest allies when it comes to attack West/Israel/Free market
It’s a shame that all those activist that would shred themselves for Palestine are absolutely quite about Iran
Why would leftists (or anyone) be confused who the bad guy is here? Generally as a rule of thumb for international conflict you can count on the left to be on the side of the underdog, no matter how naive a view that may be in a given circumstance.
My government doesn’t fund Iran.
I think your optics are skewed as to what is seen as "the left" in US centric ways. In my east european part of the world the perspective isn't shaped by ethnicity at all (except when the organized right does anti immigration manifestations), but with disgust of what authoritarians do around the world. The world seems to be in a simmering stage, and the fact that we have our Serbian neighbors continuously protesting for more than a year, dampens ideals of being able to effect change through protests.
A lot of my peers have been incredibly active on social media the last couple years supporting Palestinians. They've been mostly completely silent on Iran, the imbalance is notable.
What is striking is that the death toll in Iran from a couple of weeks of demonstrations is half as much as what Gaza suffered in 2 years of a devastating war. Even taking into account the difference in population this is shocking.
Well done to my fellow Hners for trying to gaslight op that the 2 are not comparable, when everyone here knows what is really behind this anomaly.
You have all my sympathy. Even Israelis understand the difference between the regime and the people of Iran. From a practical point of view how do feel the West should respond? Would you welcome American airstrikes? What do you feel about the looming possibility of another conflict with Israel?
>It’s a shame that all those activist that would shred themselves for Palestine are absolutely quite about Iran
Did you consider if there are any differences between the two situations? The money I earn is not being seized to fund the Iranian regime. Government and other organizations in my country are not declaring a blank check in support of the Iranian government; they're not suggesting it's hate speech to merely question the Iranian government's actions and no one is being investigated, arrested, or deported for being skeptical of the Iranian government or it's violence.
The protests have also been against the Israeli government so you’d anticipate at least protests against the Iranian government if not against one’s own government which they protest because of funding.
But we don’t see those protests against the Iranian regime. It reminds me of US protestors protesting the removal of Maduro contrasted with near total approval from expat Venezuelans in various countries.
Something doesn’t square.
I don't want to be called "leftist" because I don't want to belong to any tribe. But I do embrace a lot of the humanist ideals of the so called "progressives" and I think they might have some moral ground in here. But feel free to call me whatever you want.
In my perspective, the oppression in Iran is different from what is going on in Gaza. It is more like what happens in Belarus, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, Turkey and Myanmar: it is an authoritarian government killing and oppressing their own people. I am not American but if the American government wants to kill innocent people in Minneapolis that is an American problem that the Americans should solve, because I respect the US sovereignty.
OTOH, I am ok with western interference in Gaza because Zionism is a racist project from one ethnicity against other, it is the racist government of a racist people committing genocide against another ethnicity. It isn't an internal issue of a sovereign state as much as apartheid wasn't an internal affair of the South African regime.
That's not a fair position, those people don't have the duty to make every wrong right. As an Iranian expat how much of your time and money did you invest in fixing Iran? Apparently there are 2 million Iranians in US and just over a million in Europe and a million more in the rest of the world. What did the 4 million strong Iranian diaspora did on that matter?
That's really an unfortunate statement. I see this talking point from pro-Netanyahu accounts, showing empty university campuses and I wonder if they are demanding right to kill more people under their control(since Iranians killed more people per day and Israel is mission out) or trying to smear the protesters(which I don't see how it make sense, you don't become hypocritical of you don't invest your time and money in every issue).
Even the government can do little more, except engage in war.
Compare this to Palestine, where direct action and protest is much more tangibly impactful.
I know iranians in Spain, my country. It is lilely they are not perfectly organized but everyone deserves a life as normal as ours.
I support the fact that he comes here to disclose some more information if possible.
Palestine : Dont send bombs. Send Aid. Lift blockade so Palestinians dont suffer.
Iran : Dont send bombs. Send Aid. Lift sanctions so Iranian people dont suffer.
Interested to hear your take regarding the same.
Because there are literally pro-Palestine protests that have supporters of Iran's supreme leader[1].
I've seen a lot of comments and sentiment from leftists in support of Iran.
What bug(s) do you have, that you didn't know this?
[1]: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-08-04/international-reactio...
To the best of my knowledge this is not progressive but christian in origin in our westerner societies... never mind you are not a christian. In the west it has been like that historically.
To "fix" the situation in Palestine, a war has to stop.
That's inherently very different.
By not speaking out, it lessens the moral standing of those making a huge ruckus over certain issues, but remaining silent on arguably far more serious ones.
The power to cause change in democracy rests mostly in influence over decision makers who hold the power and money. The ability to get the news and media and celebrities talking about an issue is what gives protestors and those shouting on the left power to change things. Ultimately politicians and the elites want to be "in the right" to hold onto their power and money.
As an example, suppose 80% of the population was suddenly in an uprising about atrocities in Iran, and the next major election hinged on this subject. If some political party takes the right actions, they win the presidency house and senate. Do you think nothing would happen? Trump has literally said he wants to annex Greenland -- anything is possible if leaders feel they have political mandate.
Sitting in comfortable silence or talking about relatively easier issues just allows the more complex issues to go unsolved.
Again, nothing against pushing for peace for people in Palestine, but claiming that we should just ignore things in Iran reduces the legitimacy of the cause.
The pro-peace activist in WWII, who knew of concentration camps, but never mentioned it, and even told others not to discuss it. They claimed there was no point, nothing could be done. But the legacy wasn't the pro-peace activism, it was denial of the glaring situation they ignored.
Even more rich because Iran is currently massacring their /leftist/ population who were protesting for rights like /free markets/. How does that dissonance feel to you?
And by doing so, it would likely cause change and or discussion by those in power.
Where did I imply that, justonceokay? And no, I don't think every leftist supports the Ayatollah. Do you think every leftist, globally, doesn't support them?
I was as vague as you were, in referring to leftists. I gave a concrete example of there being confusion about who the bad guys, since you questioned why leftists (or anyone) would be confused.
I don't support all that 100% but it's not like I have any advice on the matter. I certainly don't have better ideas of where to bomb Iran or how to help a populace 8000 miles away rise against their oppressors.
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-united-states-iran-an...
https://www.cnn.com/2016/08/03/politics/us-sends-plane-iran-...
The IRGC had "no choice" if they wanted to remain in power; but they did have a choice.
The reason this is an absurd comparison is because on the Palestine issues, it’s a desire to stop using / selling weapons into a conflict and on the Iran issue “causing change” would be starting another war in the Middle East.
And did you come to this worldview before or after October 7?
"I don't know anything about them, I don't care about them, what I talk about are Soviet atrocities." he replied.
I wonder how many of the people arguing that "more leftists should be out protesting Iran" agree with the Soviet Union's criticism of its dissident?
My guess would be zero.
This created absolute hell in Syria, Libya and other nations. Democracy was certainly not delivered.
Are you calling for the US to bomb Iran? Or are you against that?
I am not sure how you're imagining this. Showing that they can buy an American iPhone, for example, is a worse "flex of power" than killing 30k protestors? I just don't get what is the supposed power flex without sanctions gonna be.
The purpose of sanctions is (everytime) actually different. It's to break the civilians so they would revolt against the government. So with sanctions, you're hurting civilians by definition. It might be "for the greater good", but it's certainly amoral approach in my book.
Encourage your government to invade/incite regime change I guess...?
I have never been able to work out where the line lies between intervention and colonialism tbh.
Wait till you learn about the people they are fighting....
Anyway, IMO the thing about Iran is that it's mostly Shia, and the population isn't that religious, especially not in cities. Unlike Syria, Iraq and Libya of the past, they aren't ruled by a secular dictatorship, but religious extremists. So, while US intervention in Iraq, Libya and so on created space for religious extremists to rise, I think getting rid of Iranian government could actually do the opposite - give a chance for secular opposition to rise.
This is criticism given from most of the region when the topic of lifting sanctions comes up. Nothing I said is novel or extreme.
In fact, we have direct evidence of what happens when those sanctions are lifted from when it was done under the Biden administration. They expanded their nuclear program and expanded funding to their regional proxies to carry out terror campaigns. The Houthis attacked global shipping lines and October 7th happened. That's not theoretical.
Btw, I'm of Iranian descent.
UK doesn't fund Israel, yet they've had most demonstrations there - still do. Clearly it isn't about the violence (whether in Iran or Israel). It's about Israel.
1. Palestine is a settler-colony of Israel, where the Israeli-right currently in power is conducting a genocide of Palestinians in Gaza ( https://www.btselem.org/publications/202507_our_genocide ) while continuing to steal their land and deny them basic rights. ( https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/6/who-are-israeli-set... ). The oppressors and the victims are clear in the Israel - Palestine conflict, and thus it is easy to take a firm moral stand supporting one over the other.
2. What is happening in Iran is either (at best) a power struggle and violent conflict between two groups - the supporters of the Ayatollah and the supporters of the Shah (backed by the west), or (at worst) the start of a civil war. In this case, apart from sympathy for the victims of violence on both sides, it is hard to take a firm political stand for one side because both have a tainted record. (How The CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy In 4 Days - https://www.npr.org/2019/01/31/690363402/how-the-cia-overthr... ). Note that these so-called "revolutionaries" in Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Nepal too went on a rampage when law and order collapsed there, looting killing and doing senseless destruction ultimately destabilising their whole country. (Now Bangladesh is conducting a farce "democratic" election that deliberately excludes a major political party, the Awami League, because the so called "revolutionaries" fear that they will not be able to defeat them electorally. Something similar happened in Ukraine too). When both sides choose violence to capture power, and are hell bent on excluding the "other" from any future "democratic" setup, who really is the one with the "democratic" values and the real victim?
There is no doubt in my mind that the stand of the west (US / UK) here is totally hypocritical (and morally repugnant) if you praise the opponents of Ayatollah as "freedom fighters", while with the same breath you denounce the Palestinians as "terrorists" for daring to fight their Israeli colonial masters for freedom!
you are looking it differently, I disagree, I am one of those who supported Palestine.
Reason we are silent, because our governments already did what's needed from our side: heavily sanctioned the Iran, if I go and protest, what do I ask? To sanction Iran? They would laugh at me. Obviously, I am not going to protest and ask our government to go to war with Iran, which kills even more people.
Why is it different for Israel? Because our government supported it, we didn't sanction them, that was what we were asking for, while brutality was even higher than Iranian regime.
Not trying to downplay casualties, but just looking at relative numbers and methods, I don't see Iran bombing own people or killing 10% of its own population
And the US liberal party did similar attacks on the Palestinian people so it's consistent.
That's a very weird take I see repeated over and over again
You don't protest only to get your government to do something, the protests against Israel expectedly did not meaningfully change US relations with Israel yet you still presumably went out
you can express solidarity with Iranians, you can protest the massacre, or just make people be aware there are thousands dying
2. The opposition in Iran is not orchestrated by the west.
Only if you zoom in and focus on one tiny sliver. If you look at the bigger picture, Israel is surrounded by dozens of countries 100s of times its size, that have all been ethnically cleansed of Jews, many of them in different stages of open or proxy war with Israel, militarily or politically.
The Iranians have been protesting that force in one way or another for more than a decade.
Too bad that this is also a first time in history, following massacre of protesters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_and_execution_of_Nicolae...
And iran doesn't control the US like israel does. And iran doesn't force censorship on americans like israel does. And iran isn't commiting genocide like israel does. When's the last time iran order the US government to attack peaceful college protestors on american college campuses? Israel has. And the US government obeyed.
It's simple. One is a genocide. The other is not.
The more "israelis" ( or is it "iranian expat" ) like you try to pretend to be "westerners" and skew the conversation, the more obvious it becomes.
Sanction them? To stop sending them weapons? Isolate them diplomatically?
Surprisingly, all is done already
Multiple of my friends on Instagram still post daily about the atrocities in Gaza, but haven't posted anything about the atrocities in Aleppo or Kobane. Nor did they post anything when the STG was massacring the Alawites or the Druze last year.
So I find it hard to believe that it's about the sanctions or whatnot.
People actually don’t really care, and almost all outrage about everything outside of lunch being served late is performative.
Your logic doesn't hold because it never held. The reason people "care" about Palestine is that they've been manipulated to care.
The logical thing would be for the American population to stand with Israel when it's being attacked. That would be the normal default. Like the rest of the world supported the US when it was attacked on 9/11. What we're seeing is the collapse of logic and truth and the win of propaganda campaigns and lies.
- History of Settler Colonialism in Palestine - https://www.globalresearch.ca/history-settler-colonialism-pa...
- Israeli Settler Colonialism Is The Obstacle To Peace - https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israeli-settler-colonialism-i...
- From Balfour to the Nakba: The settler-colonial experience of Palestine - https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/balfour-nakba-settler-...
2. Iran-US/UK:
- How The CIA Overthrew Iran's Democracy In 4 Days - https://www.npr.org/2019/01/31/690363402/how-the-cia-overthr...
- They don’t care if you die: How Iran’s protests became a bargaining chip for oil and power - https://www.rt.com/news/631163-irans-protests-oil-and-power/
This crowd is also not calling for "peace in Palestine". That would be something everyone would obviously get behind and could lead to a constructive discussion about how we get there. They are supporting violence against Israeli civilians and calling for the destruction of Israel and the murder of its populace.
It also has nothing to do with "US aid to Israel" since we see the exact same behavior in other western countries that do not aid Israel at all. For Americans to question how their aid money is used (e.g. why is it going to Egypt) or who the US does business with (e.g. why with Saudi Arabia or Qatar) is perfectly legit but it's obviously not what's going on here.
But only Iran?
Shouldn't we attempt regime change in, for example, the US?
It would be great if you could hand us the list of the evil countries that we should invade.
"the situation" changed from "more than a thousand Israelis murdered by Hamas" to the total destruction of Gaza, the death of tens of thousands and worse.
It's not exactly surprising that there was a shift in where public support is directed.
I'm pointing out how laughably wrong your argument is when 20% of Israeli citizens are arabs while Palestinian territory is 100% jew free now that they got the last hostage out.
The excuse that “some other people of this religion did something bad” does not justify hating and ethnically cleansing everyone who shares that religion.
What an exercise in utter futility.
I'm not sure if you're making this argument in good faith, but just in case. The iranian government has no love for socialists/anarchists many of whom have been executed (especially in the years after the islamic revolution) or live in exile.
From what politically active iranian comrades told me (in exile), the social movement in Iran is very much alive and there is an underground left-wing scene (for example an anarchist/punk scene). Likewise, the Jin Jiyan Azadi movement following the execution of Mahsa Amini is very much on the left wing, inspired by Rojava's democratic confederalism.
From a western european perspective (eg. me), the dilemma is not the one you presented. Sure some fringe groups have campist [1] tendencies, but that's far from representing the Left as a whole (which has historical links with the anti-islamist left-wing in Iran). The dilemma would be: how to support a people's revolution without supporting our own western empires making the situation even worse? The most moderate/imperialist liberals have learnt the lessons from the Taliban's comeback in Afghanistan and the return of black slavery in Libya: we can do better than bomb a foreign people.
Still, the demonstrations here in France supporting the uprising in Iran (at least those who are not organized by the fascists trying to bring the Shah's son to the throne) pretty much have the same crowd as the pro-palestinian demonstrations. I'd be curious, apart from obvious propaganda, where you'd find the idea that left-wingers wouldn't support overthrowing a tyrannical government.
(cue history course about the history of secularism and why opposing islamophobia is not incompatible with opposing islamism or any theological tyranny)
These are just Google results.
I personally protested for Sudan, Syria and Venezuela. Of course you might say I am just giving you excuses, but on a personal level I feel different for each one of them when protesting, my expectations also different:
* Sudan - IMO it was funded by UAE, our gov. can sanction them, but they have excuse: "Do you have proof???"
* Syria - Their excuse: "What are you talkin about, we don't cooperate with ex-Al-Qaeda, what can we do there?"
* Venezuela - "Dude, we are doing it, just shut the f... up and watch how awesome we are in conducting these operations"
* Gaza - I think initially we were naive thinking our government will help, but in reality it turned out it was same government, so it resembles more to Venezuela case rather than other cases.
As long as Iran has multiple countries it can sell its oil, there is still pressure to apply
The real reasons there are no protests are in my opinion the same ones people generally suspect
So it took from 1947 (if not longer) to 2023 to have this population become aware of the problem. Still up until a few months ago, at least here in France, it was very unwelcome (and even politically persecuted, via house searches and terrorism charges) to even mention the idea of a genocide in Palestine.
I remember over a decade ago quoting israeli settlers, newspapers and politicians arguing a genocide was ongoing. But at the time, calling it a genocide here in France placed you in the loony bin in the eyes of most people. Given some time, the iranian revolution of 2025-2026 will be well-known.
Beyond the differences outlined by other commenters (that western governments don't support Iran, but do support Israel), there's this difference that few feel compelled to get over-active on this issue because every one already feels concerned: all the TVs are talking about it, and even the right-wingers are on board. Overall, everyone (apart from some islamists) are convinced that the Iranian government is criminal. Now what can we do?
Continue spreading awareness ; your peers may get on board! But better, get informed and involved. There may be, for example, a kurdish-iranian diaspora near you organizing solidarity protests and proposing courses to understand the politics of Iran, get versed in jineology, or understand the basic tenants of democratic confederalism. There's also other diaspora. I would just encourage you to be careful with the "Reza Pahlavi" crowd, who support a fascist regime change in Iran and would encourage just as much horrible crimes as those we witness today, if they weren't done in the name of islam.
Muslims weren't required to pay a similar tax to the government because they were already obligated by their religion to pay a certain percentage of their wealth every year towards charity (Zakat).
This trope was popularised as part of the "divide and rule" policy of the British to generate animosity between muslims and non-muslims in many a British colony and today is commonly spouted in the anti-muslim tirades of many a right-wing religious fundamentalists.
I also think it’s absurd to pretend that taxing people who do not tithe to one’s favored faith or cause is non-discriminatory. Imagine Utah taxing non-Mormons because they don’t tithe to The Church or The United Way.
True we only sanction them because it's funny.
I don't really care what descent you are, anyone can have a bad opinion of American foreign policy. There are tons of people right now in America who are Iranian that are screaming for a crazy monarch to take power.
you mean, the US should repeat 1953 coup with the hope the outcome would be different. Communists and most military dictators in modern history have been secular...
WMD evidence published in western newspapers arrived in our newspapers in exactly the same way.
By contrast, the numbers provided by the "Hamas run Gaza health ministry" turned out to be accurate despite the extreme skepticism professed by the western media.
The number of progressives shutting the fuck up in a scenario where Israel does the same thing they're doing but without Western funding is I imagine approximately 0.
For example I don't believe the US saw particularly large scale anti Germany protests surrounding WW2. Before the US joined the war people didn't really know what to do, while after they joined the war there was little disagreement. The Vietnam protests were much larger, because you have the internal conflict and something obvious to do: stop fighting.
People showed up for Gaza protests because they were angry and because they felt people around them, and particularly their governments were complicit in events. People do not show up for Iran because everyone agrees it's terrible but no one really knows what to do, so who are you going to be yelling at on the streets and what would you yell? Additionally events in Iran, relatively speaking probably triggers more hopelessness/confusion than anger, these are not exactly the best emotions to inspire protest
> Imagine Utah taxing non-Mormons because they don’t tithe
Mormons don't pay their tithe to the government. In the Islamic empire, it was the government that collected the 'tithe' from the muslims after calculating their wealth. So you can imagine how disgruntled muslim citizens would have been, every year, when the tax collector only came to collect money from them and not from the non-muslims. It was this kind of social unrest that lead to the imposition of the Jizya on non-muslims.
The progressive’s version of “why don’t you go back to your country and fix it” in response to someone who’s clearly asking for empathy.
This is hilarious.
The level of bravery of the Iranians inside the country is off scale, that of those among the Diaspora participating in protests is still huge given the risk. Those not participating too much (very rare!) still millions of times more justifiable than that of people who have nothing to fear from manifesting freely and safely.
The calculated cost/benefit calculation that some leftists (me one of them generally - but not in this case) are doing, is just using the wrong calibration weights, “hate for a specific faction/team” rather than just “love for humanity and justice” (which I assume people won’t argue is a leftist pillar).
Note though that none of it can be termed antisemitic as everything in it was also applicable to other non-muslims (in whatever specific Islamic kingdom it happened). Right? That has been my whole point - muslims (other than religious fundamentalists ones) have never harboured any kind of ill-will or hatred for Jews (or other religions), till the west encouraged (sometimes forced) migrations of non-native, foreign-born Jews to the middle-east and tried to change the demographic of the whole region with nefarious political intentions.
Sanctions against Iran are imposed by the United Nations (also the US, UK and EU). That means that UN member states think that sanctions against Iran are politically palatable. It's definitionally mainstream opinion that Iran should be sanctioned.
You are not convincing China to only source oil from western aligned nations.
We (Europe and US) can't even convince India.
Short of kinetic intervention. There isn't much to be done about Iran.
I doubt bombing Iran will make the protesters in Iran more successful or united.
Sanctions for Iran is about limiting their economic growth. So that they are less effective should they try to attack their neighbors.
Civilians in a dictatorship are probably not entirely with responsibility for the regime actions either.
Regimes can rarely survive without supporters.
The majority of people killed in Gaza were terrorists while in Iran they are mostly peaceful protestors.
I think the main reason is that propaganda really works! Qatar has spent $20B on US education alone, and Qatar Russia and China have launched a massive propaganda campaign to divide the US. The left was silent on Sudan, Syria, and Nigeria as well.
No Jews no news.
Not true at all. Terrorist supporters != terrorists
And now its an absolute hell for everyone. Is that really progress?
Humanitarian Crisis: Over 60% of the population faces food insecurity. Millions are internally displaced, often living in overcrowded, inadequate, and unsafe, temporary shelters.
Economic Situation: The economy is devastated, with skyrocketing prices for basic goods, high unemployment, and a massive depletion of household resources.
Infrastructure and Health: Roughly half of all hospitals are non-functional. Access to electricity, clean water, and sanitation is severely limited.
Education and Safety: Roughly 1 in 4 schools are damaged or destroyed, affecting education access.
The security situation remains volatile, with an elevated risk of violence and armed conflict in various parts of the country.
As of late 2025, the situation remains dire, with continued, significant, and long-term deterioration in the daily lives of civilians.
Find more here: https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/syria/brief/the-toll-of...
That exists with say Palestine - it's allows picking a side that's against a western right-wing state, Israel.
It also exists with say Russia, here's a right wing white male traditionalist attacking a state that was aligning towards the leftist EU.
In the case of Iran, there's not really an angle there.
So if you understand leftism not as standing for its claimed virtues and instead being politically akin to a group of teenagers rebelling for the sake of it against their own authority figures, it makes perfect sense that deaths of the downtrodden in general are not of concern - the victimhood cause must resonate with a particular format that gives them a clear and familiar path to self-congratulation - which is the primary goal.
That said, I find it very distrustful to smear people who were active in another cause for not being active on the Iranian cause(or demanding that Israel should be allowed to kill more people considering the low international reaction to the Iran killings - i’m still not sure what this person is advocating for alongside with some Israeli influencers).
All the ones not currently complying with the will of the greatest nation on earth. Obviously
It's for their own good!
In all seriousness. Perhaps you missed the tone of my previous comment? There is nothing you can do past a certain point other than either embrace the colonial attitude or let the country do its thing. There are no more levers to pull.
On the other hand, the Left seems to claim to be the main representative of women and gay rights for example, everywhere. You can't build your entire brand on "solidarity with the oppressed" and then ghost the moment you don't have the same specific advantage you want for your agenda.
Sakharov wasn't a hypocrite. That's the difference.
It isnt even the first time zionists have done this im the last two months they were trying to whatabout over sudan also.
The thing is, guilt tripping usually works pretty well on the left... unless you're doing it in support of genocidal, nazi-level racist monsters.
Not unless you're a cynical, murderous psychopath.
It's an expression of basic human decency.
I'm a Canadian with an Irish/Ukrainian background who's never been to the Middle East. I've been using this username for 20y now, nobody's pretending to be anyone here.
Do you really think I'm some kind of Mossad-bot? This topic sends otherwise normal communities into an absolute epistemic frenzy, I swear.
I think you should just be honest about how you feel.
Your statement was just blatantly false and slightly defamatory.
Sorry this is BS. I'm very left wing but nobody I know on the left has any time for murderers.
The left is very principled. We don't have this loyalty thing that the right has. Loyalty to the party line no matter how insane. We don't have leaders that tell us what to think.
Yes I think Israel is very bad for what they're still doing in Gaza. Yes I think the Palestinian people deserve their own country. And really theirs, not that stupid resort Trump wants to make of it (where there seems to be no place for Palestinians except maybe as humble servants for the rich tourists)
But NO, I have no time for the mullahs and their security services and not for hamas either for that matter. Nor for the Taliban. They are monsters too. They are not our allies in any way and I'm hoping that Iran will become free. I even have nothing against Israelis, just their government/army
We measure people by our principles. Not by whatever side of some narratives they happen to be on. And there is no 'side' anyway. On the left we're more like an unorganized collection of people whose opinions happen to align.
I don't even support the party I vote for on every topic. I don't have loyalty, if I'm aligned with a group or party it's never unconditional. It's more that my own values currently align with theirs.
The problem with Iran is, protesting here on the streets is a bit pointless. With the gaza situation it puts pressure on our governments to sanction Israel. Like stopping doing business with them.
Protesting against the Iranian massacre won't do anything. Our governments already do no business there. The only thing it might accomplish is pissing the Iranian regime off but they won't give a crap what we think. There have been protests but yeah what can we do really?
This is a weird thing to say to me. You're saying that keeping sanctions on Iran is important to prevent another October 7 because Iran was funding Hamas? Okay, but then wouldn't it be better to put sanctions on Israel, since they're the aggressive, colonizing, occupying force?
You know why. So does everyone that uses this copypasta argument.
However when your survival is at stake (and the survival of your own kind and culture) people often stop giving a damn about who was right and who was wrong and they just try to defend themselves.
Many people understand this when the people defending themselves are Palestinians, and somehow are able to forgive senseless violence that they do, all because "they are in the right".
But somehow they cannot imagine that Israeli Jews are living for a long time in a genuine existential threat. Many people just think that all those Jews who live in Israel should just go back where they came from. That's obviously impossible since many fled countries where they didn't feel safe.
It's hard to understand the determination to fight for having just a normal life. We can't understand this because most people in the world have a "nation" a "fatherland" a place where they don't get butchered just because they belong to a given race or speak with an accent or have a long nose.
The situation is not symmetrical at all. Arabs can live in Israel. Arab citizens are not discriminated, there are Arab doctors, Arab justices, Arab members of the parlament. 20% of the Israeli citizens are Arab Muslims.
Israel is the multicultural democratic state that everybody claims to want Palestine to be. Jews need Israel to exist because they need a state that will protect them and not be at the whims of whatever populist government will turn their neighbors against (as it happened many times in many places, not only in Germany)
And yes, Israel did do many crimes directly and indirectly and has mistreated Palestinians in many cases.
But you have to put things in context. Arabs never accepted the Palestinian state and fought with several wars. Which they lost.
These kind of stuff happened many times in history, even recent history. Many borders were redrawen even in Europe and people were displaced. None of that is a good thing for people who suffered it
But Arabs did something that nobody else did for quite a long time: they engaged in a holy war, using suicide bombings and having an utter disregard for their own lives and the lives of their own children, all in the name of martyrdom. This ideology is very hard to fight. Japanese lost and surrendered, Germans lost and surrendered. Palestinian lost and kept blowing up people and making their own women and children dangerous. This increased the tension and created the condition for security checks and a kind of apartheid.
But this can be solved, if only Arabs stopped demanding the destruction of Israel. Of course, Israel cannot accept laying down their arms and letting them be butchered.
There is truth in the quote: if Palestinians laid down their arms there will be peace, if Israelis laid down their arms there would be genocide.
This seems like a crazy statement but this happens every single time Israel lowers their guard.
The only reason Israeli Jews are not dead is because they are efficient at defending themselves.
They are constantly bombed but they blow the rockets out of the air. They have shelters.
That's why there are so few dead Jews. Not for lack of trying on the Arab side.
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So what is the right thing to do in this case?
Saying "Israel shouldn't have been created in 48 so they are and they always been colonizers so now they just have to go away"?
How can this be reasonable solution? We're talking about millions of people who are born there for a few generations now.
3. Consider that Israel is also interested in wiping most of its neighbors off the map (and has, in the past 2 years, already attacked 5 of its neighbors, often with disproportionate force and brutality), and unlike Iran has far more military might and international support to do so? If we want to reduce violence in the middle east, let's look at the nation most prone to dishing it out, and most able to defend itself from it.
4. When did I look at anything through a black and white lens? I didn't say one or the other, I said my method would be more fruitful (and just)