zlacker

And yet many of the greatest accomplishments of humanity over the past few centuries have been shepherded by violence - abolition of slavery, the global transition to democracy, and decolonizatiom.

>>grafma+(OP)
> abolition of slavery, the global transition to democracy, and decolonization

It's notable that all of those are pre-democratic.

>>ethbr1+A1
Could you please clarify your statement?

>>fraggl+53
>> Attacks on free speech - like social media censorship or bans - makes democracy not possible.

GP stated this.

Parent replied with a list of scenarios where violence created progress, albeit none of which featured universal democracy before the violence.

IOW, they are loudly agreeing with each other.

>>ethbr1+o3
At least in the case of the USA, then, there's still no universal democracy. Corporations have far more powerful and influence, in basically every election you can only vote for a neoliberal, and plenty of people get disenfranchised.

>>grafma+(OP)
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but humanity has not abolished slavery. Most recent stats estimate ~28 million people worldwide in the forced labour category that most would mentally associate with the term. That rises to nearly 50 million going by the modern definition that includes forced marriage, child rearing, and subservience without recourse.

Yes, in 2025.

Sadly the United States abolishing slavery for ~4 million within its own borders in the 1860s did not represent humanity as a whole.

On paper the problem is solved because it’s illegal to openly buy and sell another person. In practice the exact same treatment and de facto ownership and exploitation of other people remain without any meaningful enforcement in many parts of the world.

>>komali+n5
It seems like bike-shedding to equate complete lack of franchise with vote dilution.

They are very different levels of democratic access.

>>transc+y5
Prison labor = Slavery.

>>ForOld+hc
Prison labor = slave labor, not slavery. Prison = slavery.

I blame how slavery is taught for the confusion. Slavery itself is a legal state where one's autonomy is fully controlled by another. Forced labor is something people commonly use slaves for, but the absence of labor didn't make one free - a slave allowed to retire was still enslaved as was a newborn born into slavery even before they're first made to work.

>>ethbr1+A1
Many slaving countries were democratic as it was understood at the time. All modern democracies disenfranchise some people e.g. the young, people with criminal convictions in some countries.

>>transc+y5
Going from institutionalized forms of slavery common around the globe for thousands of years to the almost complete absence of it in today's world is still a major accomplishment. Three hundred years ago, slavery was seen as natural by many, today that would be an absolute fringe position almost no one would feel comfortable stating out loud. That is progress, even if it is not yet enough.

>>grafma+(OP)
Only if you cherry pick. Abolition of slavery in Britain occurred without mass violence or war. Decolonization happened through violence and revolution in some instances. In many others the colonizers simply grew weary of the colonies and left.

>>arw0n+Aj1
I’m sure modern slaves appreciate the fact that their situation, while in practice virtually indistinguishable from past eras, is no longer institutionalized.