zlacker

[parent] [thread] 30 comments
1. Centig+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-08-10 19:17:53
In the US, we have government programs like PRISM and unchecked oligopolies that surveil us and use that information to identify dissent, sell us ads, and alter our behavior. In the EU, there are these initiatives to surveil us in the name of safety.

Is there any regime out there who's not trying to mass-surveil their citizens for one reason or another?

replies(11): >>nosiop+o1 >>ragmod+z1 >>dachri+r3 >>r33b33+u7 >>ncr100+Sc >>isaacr+ce >>JumpCr+Ng >>Silver+4j >>chr15m+mt >>komali+KB >>fc417f+tS
2. nosiop+o1[view] [source] 2025-08-10 19:31:50
>>Centig+(OP)
I'm unaware of Sealand[0] engaging in surveillance against its citizen.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand

replies(1): >>thauma+1d
3. ragmod+z1[view] [source] 2025-08-10 19:32:48
>>Centig+(OP)
This is a defeatist and damaging attitude. It detracts from the core issue at hand, which is EU government forcing code being run in private messaging apps over data before it is encrypted. It defeats the security model of end to end encrypted messaging, and leads to a society that cannot trust its communications against government interference ever again.

One can criticize analysis of mass surveillance of metadata and encrypted channels, but this is something else.

replies(1): >>protoc+cl
4. dachri+r3[view] [source] 2025-08-10 19:44:06
>>Centig+(OP)
Power wants to stay in power.

In a healthy society, citizens should always be wary of those in power and keep them on their toes, because power corrupts (and attracts already problematic characters).

Not driveling when they get thrown some crumbs or empty phrases ("child safety", "terrorism").

5. r33b33+u7[view] [source] 2025-08-10 20:17:00
>>Centig+(OP)
yeah, Japan
replies(2): >>fc417f+IS >>Aeolun+OW
6. ncr100+Sc[view] [source] 2025-08-10 21:09:03
>>Centig+(OP)
The Catholic Church is not for surveillance, afaik.

Join Vatican City!

◧◩
7. thauma+1d[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 21:10:10
>>nosiop+o1
With only one citizen, it would seem that the government of Sealand must necessarily be watching everything he does at all waking hours.
8. isaacr+ce[view] [source] 2025-08-10 21:18:13
>>Centig+(OP)
> Is there any regime out there who's not trying to mass-surveil their citizens for one reason or another?

Covid authoritarian policies were hugely successful and supported by mainstream people by and large. Not enough protests. Not enough dissent.

Now politicians know they can turn the power knob as high as they want and nothing will happen. Less and less dissent will be allowed, just like during covid.

If you fail to learn that and denounce those and reclaim the freedoms for all, you're going to just whine into a smaller and smaller room.

replies(2): >>JumpCr+Xg >>Krssst+MJ
9. JumpCr+Ng[view] [source] 2025-08-10 21:39:31
>>Centig+(OP)
> Is there any regime out there who's not trying to mass-surveil their citizens for one reason or another?

The one where citizens don’t regress into comfortably lazy nihilism as a first response.

◧◩
10. JumpCr+Xg[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 21:40:28
>>isaacr+ce
> Covid authoritarian policies were hugely successful and supported by mainstream people by and large. Not enough protests. Not enough dissent

America has been trashed not by Covid but by the precedence being set that partisan violence can and will be pardoned.

replies(1): >>isaacr+tk
11. Silver+4j[view] [source] 2025-08-10 22:00:30
>>Centig+(OP)
In the US, violations of civil rights that are performed by officials (like legislators) can be prosecuted under something called color of law. I think it is rarely done, if ever, but the justice department could do it. Maybe Americans need to start pushing their own representatives to call for such a case in situations where individual rights are violated.

Is there something like this in the EU, so that officials feel personal risk and liability for their actions in pushing this anti democratic policy?

replies(1): >>thalli+IN
◧◩◪
12. isaacr+tk[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 22:15:15
>>JumpCr+Xg
I don't quite understand your point. I also meant covid policies. Not covid itself.
replies(1): >>Krssst+DS
◧◩
13. protoc+cl[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-10 22:21:17
>>ragmod+z1
Australia already has this capability and is likely using it for 5 Eyes nations. Questioning the desire to surveil seems on topic when this is pretty much everywhere already.
replies(1): >>ragmod+bG1
14. chr15m+mt[view] [source] 2025-08-10 23:23:25
>>Centig+(OP)
The price is liberty is eternal vigilance.

Just as you must work each day if you want money, you must oppose tyranny each day if you want liberty.

They will always want more power over you and you will always have to fight them because of that.

15. komali+KB[view] [source] 2025-08-11 01:05:00
>>Centig+(OP)
Not really, which is a good argument against regimes in general.
◧◩
16. Krssst+MJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 02:40:50
>>isaacr+ce
> Covid authoritarian policies were hugely successful and supported by mainstream people by and large.

They were temporary and saved lives. Keyword here is temporary.

Of course COVID denialists are angry at it but they won in the USA now so we'll be happy getting more deaths and disabilities now that they are removing our ability to vaccinate ourselves.

replies(1): >>fc417f+bT
◧◩
17. thalli+IN[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 03:35:55
>>Silver+4j
The punishment can include the death penalty too.
18. fc417f+tS[view] [source] 2025-08-11 05:06:10
>>Centig+(OP)
> In the US, we have government programs like PRISM and unchecked oligopolies

In the US we also enjoy probably the most expansive protection of speech in the world at present. Our own government created Tor. Yet simultaneously the majority of the population willingly hands over the minute details of their daily lives to half a dozen or more megacorps for the sake of some minor conveniences. It's beyond perplexing. I suspect we may be the most internally inconsistent civilization to have ever existed.

replies(1): >>immibi+QH4
◧◩◪◨
19. Krssst+DS[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 05:09:16
>>isaacr+tk
They probably meant January 6th rebels being pardoned giving the example that extremists that aim at preventing democratic election results from going into effect can do as they want.

Which is a much bigger problem than "stay home a bit to avoid unintentionally killing people".

replies(1): >>s1arti+LU1
◧◩
20. fc417f+IS[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 05:10:38
>>r33b33+u7
We must be thinking of different Japans then. Related, have you seen the Tokyo police mascot?
◧◩◪
21. fc417f+bT[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 05:16:51
>>Krssst+MJ
Being temporary and being authoritarian are entirely orthogonal. In general I would imagine that cultures willing to accept temporary authoritarianism for the "right reasons" are more prone to falling to dictators.
replies(2): >>Krssst+dV >>stephe+HX
◧◩◪◨
22. Krssst+dV[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 05:43:19
>>fc417f+bT
Most democraties have provisions for times of exceptional needs and counterpowers against that. Of course that's a weakness but a weakness that's judged better than mass deaths or complete fall of the country.

Those have to be limited in time and regularly subjected to control by democratically-elected institutions (actually vote to see if extended or not).

replies(1): >>fc417f+Tc1
◧◩
23. Aeolun+OW[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 06:04:20
>>r33b33+u7
They don’t really need to surveil their citizens. The indoctrination starts from kindergarden :)
replies(1): >>latent+ZZ
◧◩◪◨
24. stephe+HX[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 06:16:25
>>fc417f+bT
It's a silly hypothetical though - the argument that some emergency measures during an international pandemic emergency are authoritarianism would only make sense if we were all still subject to the measures (like stay at home orders).

The problem for your argument is that the temporary emergency measures turned out to actually be temporary. Authoritarian regimes use emergencies (often fake ones) to entrench long-term change, this was a real emergency that had a temporary response...

replies(1): >>fc417f+vd1
◧◩◪
25. latent+ZZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 06:42:15
>>Aeolun+OW
Either that or they can't. They did after all have a minister for cybersecurity that had never used a computer.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46222026

◧◩◪◨⬒
26. fc417f+Tc1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 09:03:11
>>Krssst+dV
I completely agree of course. My reply was simply because I think it's important not to inadvertently conflate things, particularly when the issue is contentious. In this case the concepts of authoritarian and permanency, as well as the concepts of people who deny COVID, people who distrust vaccines, and people who were dissatisfied with the various government mandates.

Granted there is quite a bit of overlap among the latter trio.

◧◩◪◨⬒
27. fc417f+vd1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 09:08:27
>>stephe+HX
I don't think so? I'll state it again - temporary and authoritarian are orthogonal. Attempting to claim that the lack of permanence demonstrates that the measures weren't authoritarian thus my claim that the two concepts are orthogonal is incorrect is begging the question (at absolute minimum).

Naturally I never claimed that a dictator was attempting to take over. Merely posited that staunch resistance to such measures as a matter of principle is probably not a bad thing for society on the whole.

replies(1): >>immibi+Ic8
◧◩◪
28. ragmod+bG1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 13:40:43
>>protoc+cl
Australia can’t get technical capability notices for anything that matters, maybe some local trash only. (Don’t use Australian software or products folks).

American tech will tell them to pound sand, and you got another international incident in the media.

◧◩◪◨⬒
29. s1arti+LU1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-11 14:56:26
>>Krssst+DS
Many people feel the point of the former was to prevent the latter
◧◩
30. immibi+QH4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-12 12:51:42
>>fc417f+tS
It's consistent when viewed from a perspective of accountability evasion. They don't need to make actual anti free speech laws, because you already don't have free speech without the laws. And by not making the laws, they get to claim they give you free speech.
◧◩◪◨⬒⬓
31. immibi+Ic8[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-08-13 14:38:01
>>fc417f+vd1
But temporary authoritarianism to avert a crisis is rarely what people are thinking of when they say authoritarianism.

Ancient Rome would elect dictators to take control for two weeks at a time, because that was the only effective way to control a crisis. It remains a very effective way to control a crisis, but it only works if people can trust the political system because the political system is worth trusting. Especially people have to be able to trust they can unelect that guy (at least by waiting two weeks).

[go to top]