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[parent] [thread] 25 comments
1. ahartm+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-06-28 08:51:46
Why though, what does it achieve? Do they want to make sure that there will be terrorists / freedom fighters in the future so that they have a reason not to negotiate? Because they expect to "win" if violence continues?
replies(4): >>andrep+n2 >>tveita+j3 >>perlge+x4 >>tradet+W5
2. andrep+n2[view] [source] 2025-06-28 09:30:06
>>ahartm+(OP)
Netanyahu has privately expressed preference for terrorist Hamas over political Fatah, and Israel has propped up those terrorist groups in the past (this is well documented not a conspiracy theory).

Why? Because Netanyahu and a good chunk of the Israeli population want the Palestinians to cease to exist and its territory to be part of Israel. An opponent that wants to achieve its goals through political action and appeals to the international community meant that there was a risk of Israel being dragged into a two-state commitment. A terrorist group attacking civilians gives those hardliners a perpetual excuse to go to war.

In short: the answer is yes, that appears to be precisely the point: to prevent any possibility of peaceful reconciliation and drive the Palestinians to eventual expulsion or eradication.

replies(1): >>jopsen+l61
3. tveita+j3[view] [source] 2025-06-28 09:38:56
>>ahartm+(OP)
You can't kill 2.1 million people by bombing them.

That's why Israel has systematically taken out every hospital in Gaza: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cdd25d9vp2qo

Has blocked and sabotaged aid at every turn, including bombing UN food trucks: https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/01/1158746

And when allied countries got too uneasy about them just blocking all aid trucks at the border, they set up their own aid organization to trickle out nominal amounts of food while they take pot shots at people desperate enough to show up: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c74ne108e4vo

They didn't just make this up as they go, presumably the plans have been sitting around for a long time waiting for a suitable moment.

4. perlge+x4[view] [source] 2025-06-28 09:57:23
>>ahartm+(OP)
From Israel's perspective, Palestinians are a problem. Long term, they have a few options:

1) Give them their own state. This is difficult for quite many reasons, and Israel (by which I mean the current government) doesn't want that

2) Give them full citizenship rights equal to Israel's citizens, make sure they have a proper minority representation, and let them participate in the regular political processes. The current government certainly doesn't want that, and I have no idea what part of the Palestinians would want that.

3) Continue to treat them as sub-human, and deal with the consequences of the hatred that fosters. That seems to have been the "strategy" before October last year.

4) Try to exterminate or exile them, or at least decimating them to such an extend that the problem becomes smaller.

Since 1) and 2) are (again, from the perspective of Isreal's government) undesirable, and 3) has stopped working, 4) seems to be their current strategy.

replies(8): >>msgode+S5 >>rgblam+g6 >>xorcis+Fa >>glitch+Fs >>hedora+du >>Sporkt+XE >>jekwoo+Dm1 >>Sporkt+572
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5. msgode+S5[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-28 10:17:32
>>perlge+x4
You'd think given Israel's history they'd do everything they could to not make 4) acceptable.
replies(5): >>tradet+i6 >>ben_w+7b >>easyTh+sh >>ndiddy+4t >>int_19+jm3
6. tradet+W5[view] [source] 2025-06-28 10:19:15
>>ahartm+(OP)
The perpetual fight is mutually beneficial to all. The extremist right would not have been able to claim large swaths of land had they not had the air cover to raze Gaza. Now there is serious talk of going back into Gaza. And talk by Trump to turn it into a seaside resort has the settler movement giddy.
replies(1): >>Sporkt+yz
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7. rgblam+g6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-28 10:21:59
>>perlge+x4
>Give them full citizenship rights equal to Israel's citizens, make sure they have a proper minority representation

As the Palestinians are the majority, the Jewish Israelis would become a minority in terms of citizens and votes. This is very much akin to Apartheid South Africa, where a minority ethnic group rules over the rest of the population.

replies(1): >>yoavm+kn
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8. tradet+i6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-28 10:22:06
>>msgode+S5
I think it's the contrary. "Never again" means by any means necessary we will prevent another genocide of our people, even if it means committing genocide unto others. That much has become clear.
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9. xorcis+Fa[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-28 11:24:16
>>perlge+x4
Or exile is probably the key word. There are more historical examples of exoduses than genocides.

The problem with understanding this situation is that it probably has more to do with Israel's internal politics than what the situation looks like on the ground in Gaza and elsewhere. Just a quick read from the wikipedia page should give an idea just how corrupt the situation really is.

There's also the fact that Palestinians aren't a homogenous group in any sense of the word. That makes it hard for them to unite under any political flag. It also doesn't help that the borders are all closed, from both sides, and no neighboring country are willing to accept them.

From the outside the situation certainly looks very bleak.

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10. ben_w+7b[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-28 11:33:08
>>msgode+S5
It's very common for people to treat their own side as naturally right, and excuse anything their side does, simply *because* it is their own side.

For a commonplace example, look at a soccer match, fans screaming at the referee whenever a decision doesn't go their team's way.

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11. easyTh+sh[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-28 12:42:51
>>msgode+S5
I don't think there's much overlapping between those who experienced the holocaust and whoever is in charge in Israel right now.

Speaking for experience from some relatives, the immigration laws for people of jewish faith and ancestry were nigh insurmountable if you came from african, arab or middle east countries and pretty much just nominal even in recent times for those who had even a remote connection but came from the US and the UK.

I have the feeling they are jewish the same way Henry IV was a Catholic when he said "Paris is well worth a Mass".

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12. yoavm+kn[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-28 13:45:45
>>rgblam+g6
The White minority in South Africa were around 15% of the population, while Jews and Palestinians in Israel & Palestine seem to be much more around a 50%-50% split.
replies(1): >>rgblam+v35
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13. glitch+Fs[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-28 14:34:16
>>perlge+x4
> Since 1) and 2) are (again, from the perspective of Isreal's government) undesirable, and 3) has stopped working, 4) seems to be their current strategy.

The Israeli govt and people would be very supportive of (2). After all, there are more Arabs living in Israel than in Palestine. The Palestineans, on the other hand, overwhelmingly reject this option.

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14. ndiddy+4t[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-28 14:39:08
>>msgode+S5
Many of the Zionists viewed the Holocaust as teaching that the Jewish people need a state of their own, no matter what it takes or how many people they have to kill. They viewed the European Jews who had died in the Holocaust as weak, passive cowards who had "allowed" the Holocaust to happen, and went like sheep to their slaughter (ignoring the Warsaw Uprising, and all of the underground Jewish resistance movements). I think Israel's current actions reflect this viewpoint.
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15. hedora+du[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-28 14:50:25
>>perlge+x4
Ongoing war has been a crucial component of the current government's re-election campaigns for decades, so any option that ends the war is a non-starter.

I fear their plan is to expand military operations into additional countries until they can get back into a pseudo-stalemate scenario. That'd explain the bombings in Lebanon, Syria, Yemen and Iran.

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16. Sporkt+yz[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-28 15:34:01
>>tradet+W5
"all"
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17. Sporkt+XE[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-28 16:10:35
>>perlge+x4
Perhaps it shouldn't be up to Israel to decide the future of non-citizens then.
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18. jopsen+l61[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-28 19:29:32
>>andrep+n2
> to prevent any possibility of peaceful reconciliation

This seems like a feasible goal.

> and drive the Palestinians to eventual expulsion or eradication.

That strategy haven't worked for what 50 years, what makes anyone think it'll work anytime ever?

The Palestinians don't exactly have anywhere to go.

replies(1): >>earnes+xg1
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19. earnes+xg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-28 20:52:16
>>jopsen+l61
If there is a lot of malnutrition, population numbers will change without migration.
replies(1): >>jopsen+Iz1
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20. jekwoo+Dm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-28 21:53:06
>>perlge+x4
And why are they Israel’s problem to solve? What about Jordan who expelled EVERY Palestinian in 1970? What about Qatar? What about Egypt? Lebanon? Any Arab country???

Why is it Israel’s problem? There was a legal agreement in 1948. It could have been so simple.

replies(2): >>carefu+5x1 >>int_19+uk4
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21. carefu+5x1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-28 23:41:45
>>jekwoo+Dm1
Palestinian militants have destabilized every host country they’ve inhabited. I say this with sympathy for the displaced. Who wouldn’t consider taking up arms if forced from home, stripped of citizenship, corralled into camps, condemned to generations of refugee status.

But it is also obvious, historically, why Arab countries aren’t welcoming masses of Palestinians into their countries even in these dire moments.

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22. jopsen+Iz1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-29 00:19:30
>>earnes+xg1
That would take a long time, and the world won't look away for that long -- I hope not
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23. Sporkt+572[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-29 08:41:33
>>perlge+x4
Funny how exiling Gazans to the West Bank is out of the question. It's almost as if they have designs on the entirety of it.
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24. int_19+jm3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-29 20:26:13
>>msgode+S5
I suggest reading this 1923 essay by Ze'ev Jabotinsky, one of the early figures in the history of Israel and the Zionist movement, before Israel became a state.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/quot-the-iron-wall-quot

> There can be no voluntary agreement between ourselves and the Palestine Arabs. Not now, nor in the prospective future. I say this with such conviction, not because I want to hurt the moderate Zionists. I do not believe that they will be hurt. Except for those who were born blind, they realised long ago that it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting "Palestine" from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority. ...

> The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists, irrespective of whether they were civilised or savage. ... Every native population, civilised or not, regards its lands as its national home, of which it is the sole master, and it wants to retain that mastery always; it will refuse to admit not only new masters but, even new partners or collaborators. This is equally true of the Arabs. Our Peace-mongers are trying to persuade us that the Arabs are either fools, whom we can deceive by masking our real aims, or that they are corrupt and can be bribed to abandon to us their claim to priority in Palestine , in return for cultural and economic advantages. ...

> We may tell them whatever we like about the innocence of our aims, watering them down and sweetening them with honeyed words to make them palatable, but they know what we want, as well as we know what they do not want. Every native population in the world resists colonists as long as it has the slightest hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonised. That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing, and what they will persist in doing as long as there remains a solitary spark of hope that they will be able to prevent the transformation of "Palestine" into the "Land of Israel." ... Colonisation can have only one aim, and Palestine Arabs cannot accept this aim.

> We cannot offer any adequate compensation to the Palestinian Arabs in return for Palestine. And therefore, there is no likelihood of any voluntary agreement being reached.

Now, Jabotinsky was arguably naive in that he thought that after the inevitable forcing of the Arabs to accept Jewish colonization of their homeland, once they have "given up on all hopes", they could be negotiated with on the terms of settlement:

> In the second place, this does not mean that there cannot be any agreement with the Palestine Arabs. What is impossible is a voluntary agreement. As long as the Arabs feel that there is the least hope of getting rid of us, they will refuse to give up this hope in return for either kind words or for bread and butter, because they are not a rabble, but a living people. And when a living people yields in matters of such a vital character it is only when there is no longer any hope of getting rid of us, because they can make no breach in the iron wall. Not till then will they drop their extremist leaders, whose watchword is "Never!" And the leadership will pass to the moderate groups, who will approach us with a proposal that we should both agree to mutual concessions. Then we may expect them to discuss honestly practical questions, such as a guarantee against Arab displacement, or equal rights for Arab citizen, or Arab national integrity.

The problem, of course, is that once you have that amount of upper hand over someone, you don't actually have to negotiate. You can just keep taking everything you want, by force. And that is exactly where Israel found itself in the long term.

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25. int_19+uk4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-30 05:51:46
>>jekwoo+Dm1
Because Palestinians were already there when Israelis came and decided to create their state on those lands?
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26. rgblam+v35[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-06-30 12:52:43
>>yoavm+kn
Yes, and I should have clarified that the Palestinian majority is a lot slimmer than was the case in South Africa.

Although there remains the case of 700,000 Palestinian refugees who (in the hypothetical scenario of a unified state) would tilt the balance further if allowed to return to their/their parents homes or given property as compensation for repossessed homes.

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