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[parent] [thread] 41 comments
1. ninety+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-02-17 05:40:34
I mean the article dances around it. I hate to say this, but we have to face reality.

It is empathy that is in great part responsible for for the crime ridden shit show that is much of SF.

How do we balance empathy while making SF not a gigantic pile of shit? I don't think there is an answer here. It's choose one, or choose the other.

replies(5): >>slante+21 >>archag+W2 >>james4+U4 >>xivzgr+J5 >>ncr100+ok2
2. slante+21[view] [source] 2025-02-17 05:54:04
>>ninety+(OP)
I thought it was expensive housing.
replies(1): >>ninety+Q2
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3. ninety+Q2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 06:11:18
>>slante+21
You thought wrong. SF gave out free syringes and created laws that were empathetic to robbers and thieves.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/san-francisco-sign-stolen-...

replies(5): >>kuriku+Y3 >>majorm+64 >>notthe+m7 >>ta1243+Lx >>throw1+BF1
4. archag+W2[view] [source] 2025-02-17 06:12:23
>>ninety+(OP)
"We have to face reality" is a thought-terminating cliche. The causes of homelessness are myriad and there's a ton of conservative propaganda denigrating left-leaning politics. Also, many would beg to differ that SF is a "gigantic pile of shit."
replies(1): >>ninety+j5
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5. kuriku+Y3[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 06:22:00
>>ninety+Q2
What does that snopes article have to do with what you said?

Free syringes make sense because people will find disease-prone means to get their fix, and then they end up in emergency rooms requiring more expensive care.

replies(1): >>ninety+45
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6. majorm+64[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 06:23:02
>>ninety+Q2
Which part of that link is the part you mean to emphasize? Is it just Prop 47? Cause then a more direct link to it than to a picture of a fake sign would probably be more compelling. (And in that case, that's not a city-level law anyway.)
replies(1): >>ninety+15
7. james4+U4[view] [source] 2025-02-17 06:31:39
>>ninety+(OP)
Empathy created the housing crisis?
replies(4): >>ninety+w5 >>Redoub+x5 >>kortil+Yc >>lupusr+Yy
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8. ninety+15[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 06:32:35
>>majorm+64
The sign illustrates the spirit of the law. I'd rather talk about that then the technicalities of a legal document.
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9. ninety+45[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 06:33:10
>>kuriku+Y3
The sign is a satirical prank made to show awareness of a specific law.
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10. ninety+j5[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 06:36:36
>>archag+W2
So? Did I say it wasn't myriad? Tons of SF policies are responsible for it.

>Also, many would beg to differ that SF is a "gigantic pile of shit."

It's like the myriad of people living in North Korea who think it's the greatest country in the world. There's reality and then there's people who don't face it.

replies(1): >>archag+W7
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11. ninety+w5[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 06:38:46
>>james4+U4
prop 47 and free syringes.

The housing crisis extends across the bay area and SF is noticeably shittier then most places int he bay area. So it's likely not the housing crisis that is the reason why SF is particularly bad.

replies(3): >>notthe+87 >>vlovic+Ga >>olyjoh+Rn1
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12. Redoub+x5[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 06:38:53
>>james4+U4
Yes. Bad feel-good policies are the vast majority of the problem
replies(1): >>james4+b9
13. xivzgr+J5[view] [source] 2025-02-17 06:42:55
>>ninety+(OP)
I mean, empathy for a criminal is ensuring they have their day in court. Free counsel if they can’t afford. Innocent until proven guilty.

But their rights can’t trump victims, that’s not justice. Like someone else mentioned prop 47 was a bad idea.

replies(1): >>robert+lk
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14. notthe+87[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 06:59:45
>>ninety+w5
San Francisco doesn't even have free Narcan, which many US cities do. And of course syringes will flood the streets when you don't have safe injection sites. SF needs to learn from Portugal on how to address the drug crises. Also, it just needs to build denser to accommodate housing demand.
replies(1): >>slater+L7
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15. notthe+m7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 07:02:04
>>ninety+Q2
> SF ... created laws that were empathetic to robbers and thieves.

You're right in that SF does way too much to accommodate robber barons, tech moguls, heavily-subsidized Silicon Valley industries, and housing speculators.

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16. slater+L7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 07:05:14
>>notthe+87
> San Francisco doesn't even have free Narcan

It does: https://www.sf.gov/information--overdose-prevention-resource...

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17. archag+W7[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 07:08:08
>>ninety+j5
> Tons of SF policies are responsible for it.

Which ones? Are there stats showing before/after unhoused numbers?

> There's reality and then there's people who don't face it.

I guess I'm just too brainwashed to be miserable living in the Mission.

replies(1): >>ninety+5g
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18. james4+b9[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 07:20:15
>>Redoub+x5
Thank you for expounding. I can only assume we're talking about empathy from the real estate lobbyists who control housing policy.
replies(2): >>robert+ck >>danem+kF1
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19. vlovic+Ga[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 07:38:49
>>ninety+w5
People always say this, and yet it just seems more like SF is the tip of the spear to changes that the rest of the area faces. I remember when people were decrying the homeless epidemic in SF only for El Camino in South Bay to start having significant homeless population spring up. And then LA’s housing problem also got markedly worse. And people decry that it’s “Californian” politics only for the same problems to pop up later in their neck of the woods. These are growing systemic national and global problems with our social fabric falling apart and the response for many seems to be “take care of me first”. You even see it with the huge political backlash globally.
replies(2): >>kortil+ud >>bombca+IT
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20. kortil+Yc[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 08:01:03
>>james4+U4
If you want to focus on the housing crisis aspect and not the policies that enable addiction, then the answer is still yes.

Capped property tax increases is a moronic empathy law based on “protecting little old ladies on fixed incomes”. It has resulted in an incentive structure that means all home owners are incentivized to block all new housing and keep the value of their homes sky rocketing.

The second level of empathy laws causing the housing issue is all if the ones that empower NIMBYs to stop housing developments.

“Preventing gentrification”, “stopping the character of the neighborhood from changing”, “delays for a 1 year impact study” are all empathy motivated laws that caused the housing crisis in Cali.

replies(1): >>james4+Xo
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21. kortil+ud[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 08:04:42
>>vlovic+Ga
> People always say this, and yet it just seems more like SF is the tip of the spear to changes that the rest of the area faces.

This is not correct. SF gets a superset.

Car break-ins in SF were commonplace 25 years ago. They never became bad in the South Bay. SF just has legitimately bad policies that directly cause a lot of their issues.

The housing crisis is about the only thing it has in common with the South Bay and that’s because it is a state issue.

replies(1): >>vlovic+jg
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22. ninety+5g[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 08:26:59
>>archag+W7
Are you not aware that San Francisco was the site of the biggest population exodus out of any city? You may not be miserable but if you’re unable to comprehend why that exodus happened then you’re completely out of touch.

I’m too lazy to find stats and stats may not exist anyway. You don’t need science to prove to you the ground exists when you get up in the morning. You use your common sense for that.

replies(1): >>archag+ph
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23. vlovic+jg[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 08:28:55
>>kortil+ud
Except housing is a growing problem in other states & countries as well.

Car break-ins are because the police were not doing anything. They have started trying to finally do something about it and made a dent: https://www.sf.gov/news--increased-enforcement-against-car-b...

But keep in mind that police only ever make positive progress on policies in order to extract concessions from the city

> "I'm optimistic about the progress we've made in reducing the number of auto burglaries in San Francisco, but this is just a start," Chief Bill Scott said. "I want to thank our officers for their tireless work. The SFPD hopes to build on this progress with additional tools, like automated license plate readers, to continue making arrests and holding perpetrators accountable."

> The City has also reached a 5 year high in applicants to join SFPD, which is essential for adding more police officers back.

Oh look, the police force is becoming more politically powerful & crime is down. Wonder how that happens.

replies(1): >>kortil+ufh
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24. archag+ph[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 08:41:33
>>ninety+5g
I'm hearing a lot of appeal to emotion, not facts.

With regard to migration, I frequently see expensive CoL and remote work vis-a-vis the pandemic cited as primary reasons, not homelessness or crime. If you have reputable sources saying otherwise, please cite them.

replies(1): >>ninety+De1
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25. robert+ck[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 09:16:57
>>james4+b9
The state controls housing policy.
replies(1): >>james4+qo
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26. robert+lk[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 09:18:39
>>xivzgr+J5
> empathy for a criminal is ensuring they have their day in court. Free counsel if they can’t afford. Innocent until proven guilty

That's not empathy. Empathy is being sympathetic to someone based on how similar they are to you. You're talking about much older, less relative concepts, such as equality under the law and limits on what the state can do to people.

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27. james4+qo[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 09:56:41
>>robert+ck
Everyone is so informative here. Thank you.
replies(1): >>Redoub+Kc1
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28. james4+Xo[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 10:02:07
>>kortil+Yc
You are right. Empathy in the literal sense of only being able to relate with others that have the same experiences and interests. I appreciate that clarity.
replies(1): >>kortil+Wfh
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29. ta1243+Lx[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 11:17:39
>>ninety+Q2
That link proves you wrong
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30. lupusr+Yy[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 11:27:27
>>james4+U4
Housing is too expensive for many people in many places. The normal healthy response to housing being too expensive in an area is to live in another area. Only a very small minority of people who can't afford housing in a place they'd like to live respond by becoming homeless in that place. It's simply not a rational response to housing being too expensive.
replies(1): >>istjoh+U42
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31. bombca+IT[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 13:54:48
>>vlovic+Ga
SF literally is the tip - it’s a peninsula.

Most other cities that have large homeless populations aren’t on a peninsula so they can eventually shuffle them to places that are “out of sight, out of mind.”

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32. Redoub+Kc1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 15:55:24
>>james4+qo
To be direct, construction would look much more like Austin, which has lowered rents by actually builds things, if your vision of the case were true.

https://x.com/sp6runderrated/status/1879257360344199255?s=46...

To act like housing policy is controlled by developers, even in this contemptuous jest you exude, is delirious and is the remainder of the problem with San Francisco.

replies(1): >>james4+ha2
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33. ninety+De1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 16:05:54
>>archag+ph
There’s tons and tons of facts. Just no stats. I can point you or you can point yourself to dozens of articles and opinion pieces. But stats I’m too lazy to find and they likely don’t exist.

You go continue to live in a universe where you ignore general sentiment and fill in reality with your own happy construct where a void of stats and science exists. Did they do a research study on whether people enjoy eating feces? No? I guess I can make up whatever garbage I want around this area now. Yes people love eating shit. (This is what you and all the science maniacs around HN love doing).

No science exists on how much people hate San Francisco even though there are reams and reams of people talking about how bad things are? Ok fill it in with your own delusion of reality. San Francisco is great. I love the whiff of fresh human shit I occasionally get when the right breeze just waffs by under my nose. I love stepping on broken syringes when I go run.

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34. olyjoh+Rn1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 16:54:52
>>ninety+w5
Because it was re-using the dirty syringes that was keeping people off the streets before.
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35. danem+kF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 18:41:27
>>james4+b9
I promise you, its not the "real estate lobbyists" who fought to block subsidized housing for teachers in the Sunset.
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36. throw1+BF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 18:43:03
>>ninety+Q2
The sign refers to Proposition 47 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_California_Proposition_47), a statewide initiative that passed in 2014; it's absurd to blame the city of San Francisco for it.
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37. istjoh+U42[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 21:41:06
>>lupusr+Yy
It's not easy to leave your social network, job, and home to look for better opportunities while living hand to mouth. Things happen unexpectedly.

And it's not particularly insightful to point out that people who are homeless often have difficulties coping with the demands and challenges of life.

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38. james4+ha2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-17 22:28:38
>>Redoub+Kc1
I misinterpreted you as implying a libertarian anti-state argument. I had thought I was returning the same energy.

My apologies.

replies(1): >>robert+xv6
39. ncr100+ok2[view] [source] 2025-02-18 00:10:38
>>ninety+(OP)
Ah Empathy is not what screwed up these guys' childhoods. Don't blame empathy without acknowledging that both of these people are black in America.

There are so many reasons why this happened and it's way more than just San Francisco being supposedly more empathetic.

Rhetorically speaking, how about the fact that China is quite happy to supply precursor drugs to help make fentanyl cheap? How is that related to San Francisco's perceived empathy? Again, rhetorically.

It makes me angry that this problem is reduced so frequently when it's been proven time and time and time to be a complex problem. It's almost like citizens / voters / taxpayers are willing to play sport with this problem in order to score some kinds of points around being right, or to avoid the sense of blaming oneself, because they know they can do something about it and yet they aren't.

Being honest is a big part of making progress with this, and I think honestly this problem is way more complex than many of us have actually appropriately characterized.

The article goes a long way towards characterizing the problem well, by talking about each individuals, perspectives, situations, and how the system succeeded or fails, knocking them off the path to gaining public support.

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40. robert+xv6[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-19 10:24:32
>>james4+ha2
I was the person you replied to, and there was no "energy", whatever that is, in what I said. Just: you blame the state for state corruption, because we pay them taxes to not be corrupt.
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41. kortil+ufh[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-22 18:54:50
>>vlovic+jg
The police are part of the city policy and politics. I’m not sure what your point is
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42. kortil+Wfh[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-02-22 18:57:22
>>james4+Xo
Not quite, anti gentrification empathy is about relating to poor people. Same with the property tax cap.

It’s empathy for people with problems you don’t fully understand the cause of that turns into ham fisted destructive regulation.

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