zlacker

[parent] [thread] 23 comments
1. theman+(OP)[view] [source] 2025-01-13 18:59:30
Generally the reaction is not to minorities(non-white, is what I am assuming you mean) but to people from outside of a group trying to tell a group what words to use i.e. LatinX.

An aside: If someone who is white is talking to the Spanish speaking community, would they be considered a minority? If so, then the parent premise would hold true.

replies(2): >>spondy+a2 >>UncleM+1a
2. spondy+a2[view] [source] 2025-01-13 19:07:14
>>theman+(OP)
I mean any kind of minority, although I would generally say "marginalized group" instead of "minority." But this is HN, so trying to stick to more commonly-known terminology :P

I also think the "latinx" thing is overblown and generally used as an "anti-woke" shibboleth by people who want to get mad at something. Literally never seen an Anglophone yelling at a Spanish speaker about it before, only queer Spanish speakers who use it to refer to themselves.

Also worth noting that there have been other variations that predate "latinx" and have seen more widespread usage. There's "latine," and "latin@", although the former is both easier to write and to pronounce.

replies(1): >>svieir+Ca
3. UncleM+1a[view] [source] 2025-01-13 19:35:36
>>theman+(OP)
Latinx is a great example of the overreaction. Some people use this term. It was briefly catching on among groups with power, but ultimately never did. But it is spoken about like Harris was saying "latinx" in all of her campaign videos and that people are being fired for using "latino" or "latina" or even "latin."

Ultimately, I think it is important that groups are able to try things and then later determine that they weren't the best idea. Shouldn't this be ceelbrated?

replies(1): >>jl6+qi
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4. svieir+Ca[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 19:37:38
>>spondy+a2
> Literally never seen an Anglophone yelling at a Spanish speaker about it before, only queer Spanish speakers who use it to refer to themselves.

You and I move in different circles. I was definitely running into "normal" Spanish speakers for the past few years who's awakening experience with "wokeness" was seeing the word "Latinx" on some HR form and being told that the reason was "for Hispanic comfort" ... which every single one of them found gaslighting in the extreme (since none of them liked it, even a little bit).

replies(3): >>dalmo3+9f >>spondy+Mf >>jejone+1q
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5. dalmo3+9f[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 19:53:24
>>svieir+Ca
> seeing the word "Latinx" on some HR form

Yes, very common in job application forms. I don't find it offensive per se, but it makes me wonder if this is the kind of company where bullshit reigns in the workplace.

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6. spondy+Mf[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 19:55:34
>>svieir+Ca
Ah, HR... and here I thought we were talking about real people! ;)

I've been condescended by (generally well-meaning) corporate diversity initiatives on many occasions, but I think it's hard to take that as a statement about progressive movements in general. Corporate shit tends to be toothless and cringey across the board.

replies(1): >>svieir+qn
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7. jl6+qi[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 20:05:50
>>UncleM+1a
It would indeed be nice if these things were introduced as “let’s try a new thing and then choose to accept or reject it later, based on results”, rather than “we have determined there is only one correct way of thinking about this topic, and if you don’t like it, you’re a Nazi”.
replies(1): >>UncleM+2l
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8. UncleM+2l[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 20:17:05
>>jl6+qi
I suppose I would ask where you've seen or heard this sort of ultimatum about Latinx.
replies(2): >>dolni+Au >>jl6+JC
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9. svieir+qn[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 20:25:09
>>spondy+Mf
> I think it's hard to take that as a statement about progressive movements in general

True, but remember that many people's experience of any movement will be through an interface that is both lossy and hostile (whether it be government, corporate, clan leadership, what have you). "The effects that this had were well beyond the scope of what we intended" is so old it's in the Old Testament (but there as an answer-in-advance):

> These will be the ways of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and appoint them to his chariots and to be his horsemen, and to run before his chariots; and he will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and some to plow his ground and to reap his harvest, and to make his implements of war and the equipment of his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive orchards and give them to his courtiers. He will take one-tenth of your grain and of your vineyards and give it to his officers and his courtiers. He will take your male and female slaves, and the best of your cattle and donkeys, and put them to his work. He will take one-tenth of your flocks, and you shall be his slaves. And in that day you will cry out because of your king, whom you have chosen for yourselves; but the Lord will not answer you in that day.

~ 1 Samuel Chapter 8 via https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%208%...

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10. jejone+1q[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 20:33:48
>>svieir+Ca
Yes. I suspect that the term "Latinx" was invented by some gringx.
replies(1): >>zimpen+px
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11. dolni+Au[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 20:51:09
>>UncleM+2l
Isn't it interesting that your response here is questioning and perhaps dismissive?

If a minority were sharing their perspective about whatever their lived experience was with regards to racism, would you respond this way?

I'll answer that: no, you wouldn't.

Which very quickly lifts the curtain. The movement is not about empathy or understanding. It's about empathy and understanding for people you deem worthy of receiving it.

replies(2): >>UncleM+1w >>btreec+pE2
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12. UncleM+1w[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 20:56:48
>>dolni+Au
I really don't understand how this relates.
replies(1): >>dolni+0W2
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13. zimpen+px[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 21:01:54
>>jejone+1q
> Yes. I suspect that the term "Latinx" was invented by some gringx.

[0] suggests otherwise.

[0] https://diversity.sonoma.edu/sites/diversity/files/history_o...

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14. jl6+JC[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 21:23:32
>>UncleM+2l
Sure, for example, this guy and his paper: https://x.com/mfrmarcel/status/1850899388165693916

“Latinx” is presented uncritically as “inclusive”, and the people who don’t like it are smeared as “queerphobic”.

This is academia at its most tone-deaf and ignorant. If he actually spoke to some Latino people he would quickly discover that the reasons for the backlash have approximately zero to do with “queerphobia”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latinx

replies(2): >>imphat+sI >>anigbr+MF1
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15. imphat+sI[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-13 21:53:10
>>jl6+JC
Can you please bridge how your comment "and if you don’t like it, you’re a Nazi" is in any way connected to this tweet about a researcher saying the usage of the phrase "latinx" reduced latino support for Democrats?

Another person is asking basically "why are people so quick to dismiss claims of aggressive wokeness policing" and this is why. Because it is always so much exaggeration about the topic coming from these claims.

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16. anigbr+MF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 04:25:13
>>jl6+JC
That's an egregious misrepresentation. The authors of that paper surveyed Latinos, found that those who disliked the term 'latinx' had moved toward voting for Trump between 2020 and 2024, and that those most likely to move were also most likely to express antipathy toward LGBT people.

You say the academics should have talked to some Latino people, and they did - n = ~2000. Are you saying that they should not have reported their results because you dislike what they imply?

replies(2): >>zahlma+BV1 >>jl6+632
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17. zahlma+BV1[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 07:08:34
>>anigbr+MF1
>The authors of that paper surveyed Latinos, found that those who disliked the term 'latinx' had moved toward voting for Trump between 2020 and 2024

It's strange for the author to distinguish "those who dislike the term" from those who don't, considering that the term is overwhelmingly unpopular (https://www.pewresearch.org/race-and-ethnicity/2024/09/12/ho...).

replies(1): >>anigbr+iB4
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18. jl6+632[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 08:35:54
>>anigbr+MF1
I’m saying that he shouldn’t have presented use of “Latinx” as an unalloyed good, and uncritically “inclusive” (a massive assumption which is highly debatable, particularly amongst Latinos), and that his survey questions are very weak at controlling for the explanations that Latinos generally give for disliking the term (pronunciation, erasure of diversity, trendiness, imperial/colonial attitude to language, elitism…).

Concluding that there is no problem with the term and the real problem is “queerphobia” is textbook academic myopia.

See this critique, which the author engages with - unconvincingly: https://x.com/paulnovosad/status/1851994193503359003

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19. btreec+pE2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 14:08:47
>>dolni+Au
> If a minority were sharing their perspective about whatever their lived experience was with regards to racism, would you respond this way?

If a small group of people told me they actually experienced flight under only human power, no mechanical assistance. Would it be right to take that claim at face value?

I'll answer that: no, it wouldn't.

If you're going to ignore plausibility entirely, then yeah I suppose all statements deserve equal consideration.

However... If it is the case that some stamens are more plausible than others maybe it's an effective heuristic to be skeptical of implausible claims.

replies(1): >>dolni+mX2
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20. dolni+0W2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 15:33:32
>>UncleM+1w
Maybe that is the problem.
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21. dolni+mX2[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 15:39:07
>>btreec+pE2
The number of people making the claim is not small.

You probably just cut all the people out of your life who disagree with you.

That is the liberal way, these days.

Donald Trump, among the worst presidents the US ever had, won the 2024 election. This kind of nonsense was absolutely a factor.

replies(1): >>btreec+i03
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22. btreec+i03[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 15:51:14
>>dolni+mX2
By definition, a minority group isn't the majority. So it's at least less than half. A non-small amount of people claim the earth is flat.

Does a personal attack make you feel better about yourself, your situation in life?

If that "kind of nonsense" was a factor, show us in the numbers where it made an impact. I got time, don't cop out, cough it up.

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23. anigbr+iB4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-14 22:32:07
>>zahlma+BV1
I don't see why. My read of the research paper was that they went looking for correlates to gain some insight into why it's unpopular.
replies(1): >>zahlma+qP4
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24. zahlma+qP4[view] [source] [discussion] 2025-01-15 00:12:07
>>anigbr+iB4
Because the finding is more accurately described like "Latinos[0] moved towards Trump". If that's related to the latinx thing, it might be something like "... in part because they generally resent having this 'latinx' thing pushed on them".

[0] Here in Canada, as far as I can tell "Hispanic" is the accepted term - but it's rare for people to identify that way generically (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_origins_of_people_in_Ca...). People here far more often attribute their ethnicity to a specific country of origin rather than to some generic grouping.

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