zlacker

[parent] [thread] 26 comments
1. serial+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-09-27 06:26:30
While everything you wrote I agree with, I’m not sure I arrived to the same conclusion. Alcohol, cigarettes, workaholics, social media apps all ruin the lives of the weak and those around them. Should we make them all illegal?
replies(8): >>vincne+e1 >>andrep+O2 >>nuance+n5 >>eek04_+r6 >>mlsu+e7 >>komali+Ia >>NobleL+hh >>interl+Tt
2. vincne+e1[view] [source] 2024-09-27 06:35:27
>>serial+(OP)
This boils down to a two question "should we as society allow a person to destroy his life." And because there is also a big external pressure from financially interested parties to convince a person to do things that are not beneficial to him, second question is "should we as society let smarter people fool less educated people out of their money/health/ happiness" (second one is more tricky) but low hanging fruits are advertisement for alcohol, gambling, smoking and other obviously non beneficial activities.
replies(1): >>achene+ca
3. andrep+O2[view] [source] 2024-09-27 06:51:29
>>serial+(OP)
Well, you cannot advertise cigarretes, so yes, why can you plaster the Internet, primetime TV, and player's jerseys with gambling ads?
4. nuance+n5[view] [source] 2024-09-27 07:13:55
>>serial+(OP)
It is nuanced.

Take alcohol. It is a drug, a poison, addictive, acute severe health problems are rare - although it can kill via the stupor it imposes but long term health and affects on productivity etc. Really bad.

So society may be better off without it. But then mind altering substances may be good even if they are bad for social cohesion and self medication. It is hard to be sober you have to take life as it actually is.

Make it illegal? Well that is almost orthogonal... why? What does it achieve to make it a moral outrage ... and who is the criminal? The brewer, the distributer or the drinker?

Then even if you decide that incarceration is a good think to do to people who do one of the 3 things - the prohibition shows that people will do it anyway. As a drug alcohol in particular is probably the easier to synthesize. You just need readily available pantry items and a jar. Other drugs need chenistry labs, precursor chemicals or plants. So that effects the affect of criminializing alcohol.

Then mix in its deep root in culture!

Now alcohols is discussed, what next... too much work...

That will have a different set of problems, solutions, unintended consequences of fixing the issue and so on.

So just treat gambling like its own thing. Even then casino poker vs. Slots vs. Lottery vs. Physical Bookie vs. Online booke vs. Crypto vs. Backstreet all have different subissues and may need to be legislated individually.

5. eek04_+r6[view] [source] 2024-09-27 07:26:18
>>serial+(OP)
If we can, and it works out to less harm vs benefit than otherwise: Yes. But it turns out we can't for alcohol and cigarettes (except regulation). We fairly much can for workaholics - Norway has laws that stop working overtime except in certain situations, and they actually work fairly well. I don't know if we can for social media, though I see California is trying to stop some of the addictive forms of social media.
6. mlsu+e7[view] [source] 2024-09-27 07:34:40
>>serial+(OP)
Of course. Freedom and all.

My uncle gambled away a successful business, a beautiful house, his family, his friends. In my early memory he was a giant who carried me in the ocean, flying just above the breaking waves. Later on, when I was in elementary school, he lived with us for a bit. Some time later he lived in his Buick. He died alone and with nothing.

In my mind, we all should not allow a man to do that.

replies(2): >>inglor+Va >>wallaw+sG
◧◩
7. achene+ca[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 08:05:39
>>vincne+e1
that's a good point.

Ban advertising for gambling, tax the hell out of gambling companies... possibly create some sort of regulation for actual gamblers, i.e. check their ID against a national database everytime they bet to ensure they're not over-doing it... seems more likely to fix the issue than outright prohibition, which, at least for other things like drugs and prostitution, doesn't really seem to solve much.

8. komali+Ia[view] [source] 2024-09-27 08:09:58
>>serial+(OP)
I hold the strong belief that gambling companies are evil and make the world worse and I wouldn't find the burning of them down by the loved ones of people's lives they ruined to be unethical.

However people should know what regulating ethics to this degree looks like: the modern PRC. In the PRC you get a government mandated timer on your MMOs to ensure you don't spend too much time playing videogames. In the internet cafes there's 24/7 a CPC bureaucrat prowling around keeping an eye on your chats - plus automated mandated filters which depending on the implementation can auto kick you from a multiplayer match, hence the entirely viable strategy when playing against PRC players to spam "FREE HONG KONG REVOLUTION OF OUR TIMES CCP COMMITS GENOCIDE AGAINST UIGHUR MUSLIMS XINJIANG" into chat to get them kicked from the match.

There's industry level morality controls as well such as not being allowed to make a tv show featuring "feminine men" and the implicit ban on showing LGBT couples.

Personally I don't trust a State to choose the correct morals, be it aesthetically communist or aesthetically capitalist. We can look at America's history of moral laws to see another example, such as prohibition.

replies(3): >>umanwi+jb >>pbhjpb+Nd >>Dylan1+h03
◧◩
9. inglor+Va[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 08:12:03
>>mlsu+e7
That still leaves you with a question if harm reduction is better approach than criminalization. At least you don't attract the mob into the business with the former.

Banning addictive things isn't as straightforward as people love to believe. Even during the worst theocratic times, you could get alcohol in Saudi Arabia by asking the right people; and Saudi Arabia had way harsher means at its disposal than democratic countries do.

(For the complete picture, my grandpa drank himself to death at 57 and even though he used to have a good income, on the order of 3x as much as an average Czechoslovak worker of that time, he left almost nothing behind. All "liquefied". Other people were able to build family houses for their kids with less money.)

◧◩
10. umanwi+jb[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 08:16:16
>>komali+Ia
There’s a readily available example proving your slippery slope isn’t guaranteed to happen: gambling was illegal in most of the US very recently and it wasn’t anything like China.
replies(1): >>pclmul+uR
◧◩
11. pbhjpb+Nd[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 08:45:26
>>komali+Ia
So instead, you trust for-profit companies to direct the morals of society?

Surely the reason prohibition failed so badly was that it wasn't democratic. You can't mandate against vice unless you have the support of the majority.

replies(2): >>komali+Dn >>CMCDra+JW2
12. NobleL+hh[view] [source] 2024-09-27 09:20:59
>>serial+(OP)
Some people believe that their beliefs and way of life should be enforced. Here, which human habits or activities are allowed or "OK" even if partially or very deletorious.

The desired force vector varies in magntitude and orientation, but can, in the extreme include removal of independence / imprisonment or less extreme banning and fining etc

Because a single or group of people believe it, it must be for everyone, equally.

replies(1): >>CodeGr+gs
◧◩◪
13. komali+Dn[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 10:10:45
>>pbhjpb+Nd
> So instead, you trust for-profit companies to direct the morals of society?

Absolutely not. I don't really have a solution, but in general it seems distributing power to more local level forms of governance works well for many things, so perhaps something along those lines?

replies(2): >>paulry+mH >>FactKn+u92
◧◩
14. CodeGr+gs[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 10:45:02
>>NobleL+hh
So? Literally the entire political apparatus depends on a few people enforcing their ideas of how the rules should be, and everyone else has to play by them.
15. interl+Tt[view] [source] 2024-09-27 10:56:56
>>serial+(OP)
The question of legality isn't just about the potential for harm; it’s about balancing individual freedom with societal responsibility
◧◩
16. wallaw+sG[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 12:20:24
>>mlsu+e7
Many such similar stories, except where the crutch is alcohol. Back to the original question, would you propose banning alcohol as well?
replies(1): >>joshle+iG1
◧◩◪◨
17. paulry+mH[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 12:27:35
>>komali+Dn
Local control has limits too. In the US one can now export pollution to ones neighboring states. Las Vegas exports it's externalities by marketing to out of state populations. (Or at least they did when gambling was more heavily regulated elsewhere)
◧◩◪
18. pclmul+uR[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 13:33:41
>>umanwi+jb
The gambling bans in the US weren't that effective. People who wanted to gamble went to crypto casinos or other online gambling games.
replies(1): >>umanwi+te1
◧◩◪◨
19. umanwi+te1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 15:28:11
>>pclmul+uR
They still stopped the vast majority of casual people.
◧◩◪
20. joshle+iG1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 17:35:06
>>wallaw+sG
Perhaps ban is too strong. I think Canada has had a really positive result in how it has dealt with tobacco. Cigarettes are by no means illegal, you can get them at any gas station, grocery store, 7-11 or pharmacy. But they are heavily taxed, the packages have to be covered in graphic warnings, the branding has to be plain and just use a generic font of the brand name. Commercials aren't allowed. Advertising isn't allowed. As a result, a lot less people just take up smoking, and it's almost completely fallen off culturally.

That might be the best solution to gambling. At least in Canada, casinos are very well advertised and glamorized. They're often run by the government, but they still market themselves to attract customers in a way you wouldn't expect of say, a safe opioid consumption site. Their slot machines are just as addictive. Sure, there's lip service paid to preventing gambling addiction, eg a piece of paper on the wall instructing patrons to play responsibly. But if we took the same attitude towards it as we do to tobacco, it might just fade away without all the downsides of prohibition.

◧◩◪◨
21. FactKn+u92[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-27 20:28:07
>>komali+Dn
>it seems distributing power to more local level forms of governance works well for many things

>CCP COMMITS GENOCIDE AGAINST UIGHUR MUSLIMS XINJIANG

wow, you seem to really know what you're talking about!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_regions_of_China

replies(1): >>komali+PH2
◧◩◪◨⬒
22. komali+PH2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-28 02:11:56
>>FactKn+u92
Is your argument that Xinjiang is somehow autonomous from the CPC government? That's a very strange claim to make considering it's undeniably ruled completely by the whims of the CPC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_Hard_Campaign_Against_V...

If that's not what you mean, can you help me understand what you're saying?

◧◩◪
23. CMCDra+JW2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-28 06:12:59
>>pbhjpb+Nd
I think this is a false dichotomy between the state and private industry.

The morals of society is directed by culture. The state does not and never have a monopoly on culture, because culture is embedded.

If a culture is against gambling, you need no regulation/laws at all. The daoist would argue that the need to have strict laws on behaviour is due to a deviant culture. As an aside the legalist argues that humans are evil, fickle and morally corrupt by default and need strict laws.

I'm just making shit up, but perhaps an Abrahamic culture needs salvation, thus it needs outlets of sin so that it generates demand for people to be saved.

replies(1): >>pbhjpb+Nu3
◧◩
24. Dylan1+h03[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-28 07:06:54
>>komali+Ia
Regulating what businesses can sell is pretty different from regulating what people can say.
replies(1): >>komali+5N6
◧◩◪◨
25. pbhjpb+Nu3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-28 14:20:53
>>CMCDra+JW2
Re your last paragraph, the New Testament addresses an argument about Christian grace, some said they should sin more because that left more room for God's grace. Not surprisingly the Bible's answer is, nu-uh (an emphatic no).

I think society can generally be against something, yet it succeed. Most people consider greed to be bad, but it's the foundation of capitalism. I'm not sure if most people would say gambling is wrong. (This survey, https://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/blog/post/gambling-sur..., found only 41 of self-selected UK gamblers rated it positively.)

A democratic state should reflect the desired culture, if it doesn't it's not being democratic. Businesses can also do that, as can other organisations. Most businesses goals are aligned away from benefiting society in general; whilst a democratic state should be at least loosely aligned with that end (by definition).

Thanks for a thought provoking response.

◧◩◪
26. komali+5N6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-30 02:49:37
>>Dylan1+h03
Ehh is it? The CPC regulates videogames the way it does because it views it as a moral harm to society the same way people argue about gambling destroying lives. And gay sex harms the fertile output of the People and so also shouldn't be promoted. Capitalist imperialism is always at the gates trying to tempt people to turn on their fellow citizens and oftentimes it masquerades as a Christian Missionary so the State is obligated to keep a sharp check on religious organizations, not to mention to protect people from destroying their lives through cults (and ALL religions are cults). These needs require the regulation of speech and business.

The USA doesn't take it quite so far but it did strongly regulate the socio-economic imperialism of Communism, leveraging State resources to attempt to convince socialist leaders to kill themselves (MLK) or just by assassinating and imprisoning them (Black Panthers). The State protects people from ruining their lives with marijuana, or from ruining the justice system by telling people walking into a courthouse about Jury Nullification. These needs require the regulation of speech (can't tell people Communism is super awesome and you should unionize and strike) and business (can't open a casino in downtown LA).

For the record gay sex isn't harmful to the fertility of the state and shouldn't be regulated, nor should speech about Jury Nullification, I was just making a point about both nations.

replies(1): >>Dylan1+Wc7
◧◩◪◨
27. Dylan1+Wc7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-30 07:58:27
>>komali+5N6
> Ehh is it?

Yes.

Your first paragraph is about motive, which isn't enough to make those two actions the same.

Your second paragraph is just bad things the US did? I don't see how it's relevant to the question.

[go to top]