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1. pfannk+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-09-13 14:11:47
This comparison is backwards.

Listening to music performed in person by other humans is the natural way of things, like actually having sex with another human.

Recorded music is much more like pornography.

replies(6): >>Michae+91 >>itisha+l1 >>makeit+B2 >>antime+G7 >>vasco+lp >>standa+uB
2. Michae+91[view] [source] 2024-09-13 14:22:05
>>pfannk+(OP)
Following that logic:

‘Reading words etched into a stone or inscribed on papyrus by other human hands is the natural way of things, like actually having sex with another human.

Reading words created via machines is much more like pornography.’

replies(1): >>itisha+b2
3. itisha+l1[view] [source] 2024-09-13 14:23:30
>>pfannk+(OP)
That's a fascinating perspective. I wonder if there was any pushback when recording was first introduced?

A quick search shows... of course there was!

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/06/06/the-record-eff...

https://archive.is/PDR04

replies(1): >>vunder+gp
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4. itisha+b2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 14:30:52
>>Michae+91
Words etched in stone? Bah! Words were created for speach!

> For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise.

> - Socrates

https://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?id=3439

replies(1): >>hoover+Qw
5. makeit+B2[view] [source] 2024-09-13 14:34:16
>>pfannk+(OP)
I'm not sure I follow, how is listening to music performed by another human live different from watching another human performing a sexy act live ?

The analog to actually having sex would be playing with the band on the stage.

replies(2): >>pfannk+H4 >>ronino+br
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6. pfannk+H4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 14:48:01
>>makeit+B2
Fair point.

The reason I don’t think only playing with the band counts is: in a hunter gather tribe 70,000 years ago, did everyone sing all of the songs all of the time? Or did some people just listen, at least some of the time?

Practically speaking I think it must have been the latter.

Of course there are lots of unnatural aspects in live music still, like too many people, too loud, etc. But recorded music is wholly unnatural, like pornography is.

replies(4): >>makeit+p7 >>nullst+A9 >>vunder+Qa >>velp+X31
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7. makeit+p7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 15:06:21
>>pfannk+H4
I get how it could be seen as "natural", but I'm not sure to see value in that definition. From that token, most of human culture is unnnatural, but honestly it doesn't bother me much.

I'm glad we have books, even as it's not as natural as oral transmission. I love photography, I'm so glad we have chemical food that requires such a brewing process to come to fruition, and I have no desire to go back to a hunter gatherer society, I like civilization in general. And pornography is sure part of it.

8. antime+G7[view] [source] 2024-09-13 15:07:50
>>pfannk+(OP)
The natural way of things is to die at 30 of dysentery- I’m glad we are past that
replies(1): >>cocok+bw1
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9. nullst+A9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 15:21:09
>>pfannk+H4
> Practically speaking I think it must have been the latter.

This assumes music was made as a performance. Music can be (and i argue probably mostly was) people jamming together. Musician and audience are blurred in this scenario.

replies(1): >>RevEng+lJ
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10. vunder+Qa[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 15:29:13
>>pfannk+H4
It seems like you're drawing an arbitrary line in the sand to determine what things are natural versus what things are unnatural. Furthermore, it seems like you think by definition, unnatural is negative.

By your logic, writing things down is also unnatural and we should've kept with the oral tradition only.

Natural is stepping on a piece of metal, contracting tetanus, and dying without appropriate medical treatment.

replies(1): >>HappMa+u91
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11. vunder+gp[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 17:00:36
>>itisha+l1
Kurt Vonnegut wrote in a couple of places about how recording and mass reproduction destroyed the social (and monetary) value of small-time creative or artistic-expression talent, like knowing how to play the piano OK or being a pretty-good singer or dancing decently well, or being a quite good (but not top 0.1% good) storyteller, or being fairly good at sketching people.

Took social, and perhaps making-a-living value almost totally away from anything but tip-top talent in those areas. Nobody in your family needs you to play music at get-togethers and parties—you’re worse and less-convenient than thousands of artists on Spotify. They don’t wonder with excitement what sort of sketches Uncle Robert will bring to the next holiday, to give to his extended family. At best, that kind of thing’s indulged and tolerated now. The demand is all but entirely gone.

I reckon it was a real belief of his, given he wrote of it more than once, and whose voice it was put in, the one specific case I can call. There’s a chapter in Bluebeard about it for sure (that novel’s kind of a whirlwind tour of most of the major themes and points of Vonnegut’s work—dunno if it was intended that way, but that’s how it turned out) and I know I saw it other places, can’t recall which books.

replies(3): >>amoort+ZK >>jofla_+HO >>zizee+g31
12. vasco+lp[view] [source] 2024-09-13 17:01:27
>>pfannk+(OP)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
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13. ronino+br[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 17:15:13
>>makeit+B2
It's safe to say that the impact on one's emotional and mental state is vastly different. This is a wider discussion of porn vs music, not necessarily OF vs recorded music though.
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14. hoover+Qw[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 17:55:01
>>itisha+b2
He's not wrong- the average bookcel doesn't have the same sort of oral recall that storytellers of past had. Not that it's a bad thing.
15. standa+uB[view] [source] 2024-09-13 18:27:19
>>pfannk+(OP)
There is plenty of live streaming porn as well. Not to mention live sex shows.
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16. RevEng+lJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 19:21:08
>>nullst+A9
Agreed, that's my experience growing up in a family where we regularly sang songs together casually as part of parties. It was less about listening to one performer and more about being part of the performance. Same still happens today with things like choirs - people are in it for singing with others, not for the eventual public performance. It's a very social activity.
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17. amoort+ZK[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 19:31:44
>>vunder+gp
Really thoughtful comment. (An upvote was not enough :-)
replies(1): >>vunder+3T
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18. jofla_+HO[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 20:01:08
>>vunder+gp
I see the same things emerging in the computing realm. Really, we don't need you to come over and help with X, ill just get off-the-shelf commoditized do-hickey and we'll be all set. I'd like to think the same won't be said for developers in the future.
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19. vunder+3T[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 20:34:50
>>amoort+ZK
Haha, the thoughtful parts are Vonnegut’s.

I found an abbreviated quote from the bit I’m thinking of in Bluebeard. Loses some of it, but gets his point across:

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/277466-simply-moderate-gift...

But I am quite sure I saw similar sentiments at least one other place in his work, and I think a couple places—years and years ago I read most of his novels, plus most of the collected short fiction and short stories, but it’s all pretty fuzzy now.

replies(1): >>Hasu+9h1
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20. zizee+g31[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 21:48:05
>>vunder+gp
This is very close to my feelings about the swathe of AI tools being released. The ability to write an essay, create unique art, spit out a SQL script, write a pithy limerick... all these things are being cheapened somewhat.
replies(2): >>HappMa+h91 >>PopePo+Dv1
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21. velp+X31[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 21:54:46
>>pfannk+H4
Highly recommend the book "This is your brain on music", as it explores this question (among other interesting things).

According to the author, having separate words for singing and dancing is a relatively new phenomenon in linguistics, and the concept of a performer and an audience as a distinct separation is also relatively recent. He likens it to conversation - sure in any given instance there may be people more or less involved in the dialog of a conversation, but we would all think it very strange if someone said "I only listen to conversations, I don't talk in them" in the way someone today might say "I only listen to music, I don't sing/play/dance".

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22. HappMa+h91[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 22:41:48
>>zizee+g31
It's like every time hundreds of millions of humans figure out how to do a creative thing to a given mediocre standard, the rest of us figure out how to either give global broadcast reach so that the work of one can satisfy millions and raise the bar that way (large amphitheaters, printing press, public transit, tv, telephone, internet), or teach a robot how to accomplish the same task (sewing, precise assembly labor, automobiles vs horses, GPT, maybe eventually self-driving cars or vending-machine cooked to order fast food).

If I talked about putting all of the telephone sanitizers on a spaceship that might be a reference those of a certain age might be able to grok. :)

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23. HappMa+u91[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-13 22:43:45
>>vunder+Qa
That's the spirit, porn is like hospitals. :D
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24. Hasu+9h1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-14 00:08:00
>>vunder+3T
His first novel, Player Piano, is about a different, but related theme.

It's about machines replacing human work, but it's not at all about the machines. It's about the people. It's about human dignity. Or, as Vonnegut says, it's about "a problem whose queasy horrors will eventually be made world-wide by the sophistication of machines. The problem is this: How to love people who have no use."

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25. PopePo+Dv1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-14 03:28:08
>>zizee+g31
I agree with you on everything except the SQL scripts. A world where absolutely nobody has to master SQL or regular expressions is a small step closer to paradise.
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26. cocok+bw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-09-14 03:38:31
>>antime+G7
I don't know, quality of modern life degrades after 30 for many of us. After living with chronic diseases for a decade or two, I kinda envy the hunter-gatherers.

Die quickly at 30, with 10 children and some grandchildren even. Sounds like mission accomplished to me.

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