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[parent] [thread] 24 comments
1. acheon+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-08-10 16:01:14
Well, that’s depressing. Were EFF recommendations applied?
replies(2): >>walter+Jz >>tptace+S67
2. walter+Jz[view] [source] 2024-08-10 22:07:00
>>acheon+(OP)
EFF tweet, https://x.com/eff/status/1821672613468569628

  Member States traded away existing human rights safeguards to reach a contrived consensus for a treaty that will endanger journalists, dissenters, human rights activists, and every day people around the world.
Related thread: >>41210110
replies(1): >>bright+Rb8
3. tptace+S67[view] [source] 2024-08-13 17:53:33
>>acheon+(OP)
I don't think the EFF has much suction at the level of international diplomacy. Most UN countries, including much of Europe, don't have the basic categorical legal principles much of EFF's argumentation relies on, especially re: free expression and rules of evidence.

Fortunately, those same legal principles in the US cannot be overridden by a treaty.

replies(2): >>dannyo+y97 >>cma+UJ7
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4. dannyo+y97[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-13 18:11:38
>>tptace+S67
There has always been a fairly established group of NGOs with similar criticisms at the international level, including EFF (you're more likely to hear these critiques from EFF at HN because ... well, we're a pretty an EFF-adjacent community here.)

Unfortunately, the UN mostly works as a venue for governments negotiating with governments, with accredited NGOs having a position of being tolerated in those discussions, but with no real power. Outside of those tolerated NGOs, influence drops even further.

(When I was at EFF, we did try to get UN official accreditation, but China would consistently veto it. There are other digital rights groups that have been accepted though, and we worked very closely with those. The full list of NGOs are here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_organizations_with_con... )

replies(1): >>tptace+Vc7
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5. tptace+Vc7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-13 18:32:08
>>dannyo+y97
Yeah, I was only struck by the previous comment's implication that the UN Office of Drugs and Crime might in the ordinary course take and act on feedback from the EFF. Like, it could happen, but it would be very surprising, right?

I think it almost doesn't make sense, in that I perceive EFF to be, whether overtly or not, a very American organization with very American public policy views.

replies(2): >>gjsman+ue7 >>dannyo+2Z7
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6. gjsman+ue7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-13 18:37:52
>>tptace+Vc7
The other issue is that the EFF is the minority opinion on many, many subjects. Many of the most effective NGOs have a "we agree with you, but this 10% needs to change," which is flexible enough that governments who otherwise wouldn't care pay attention.

The EFF isn't like that - for example, the idea of outlawing DRM, while popular among hackers and people here, is a total nonstarter internationally. It's about as effective as hiring the FSF to lecture Microsoft; or hiring PETA to lecture Tyson; or hiring the Amish to lecture you on electrical design. The opinions are so diametrically opposed that it's not even worth considering.

replies(4): >>advael+3J7 >>dannyo+v08 >>shiroi+Bd8 >>red_ad+RQ8
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7. advael+3J7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-13 21:32:18
>>gjsman+ue7
Not surprisingly, most governments have little to no respect for individual freedom and autonomy. To my understanding, this is among the best reasons not to sign such treaties with said governments, as compromising on principles surrounding fundamental human rights should be a non-starter for those that value them
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8. cma+UJ7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-13 21:39:36
>>tptace+S67
For strict textualists it is ambiguous whether the supremacy clause puts treaties above the constitution, or was referring to state constitutions:

> This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

And there is no explicit ordering of priority between them and the Constitution.

replies(1): >>tptace+MM7
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9. tptace+MM7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-13 22:02:47
>>cma+UJ7
I don't think this is true, regarding federal law precedence and the Constitution. To be true would be to imply that the Senate, with the cooperation of the executive and one other country(?!), can override the Constitution.

You don't have to get there axiomatically though; you can just look this up. Treaties are coequal with federal statutes, and are overridden by any conflicting statute passed after the treaty is ratified.

replies(1): >>bdw520+Ra8
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10. dannyo+2Z7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-13 23:49:04
>>tptace+Vc7
I think the best way to think about this is that there are a number of human rights groups who collaborate on critiquing proposed treaties and other international proposals (at the UN, at WIPO, etc). The process tries to incorporate these critiques, as it does with other input (such as that from companies). While it's all real politik in the end, different states have different viewpoints and incentives, and having dedicated experts work with you to understand, criticise, and suggest language or positions is often useful.

In particular, a lot of global proposals come out of the US, especially around IP, so having a US organization say "this is what the US political situation is, this is how this has worked out in the US, and these are the lobbying groups pressuring the US to support this internationally", can be very useful.

I was EFF's international activist and later international director for a number of years. A lot of EFF's rhetoric is aimed at US lawmakers, and its primary USP for change, public impact litigation in the US courts, means that a lot of what you see is oriented toward American audiences and actions.

But behind the scenes, much more of the work than you'd imagine has a global side to it. This has been true since the days of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, elements of which were rejected by the US Congress in the mid-Nineties, then policy-laundered through WIPO into the 1996 Copyright Treaty, which meant that it had to become law after the US Senate consented to it in 1999. (Treaties don't need the support of both houses in the US). EFF and other orgs at the time learned the lesson that regional and international agreements can often be an end-run around local democracy or norms -- and that local laws (from the DMCA to the GDPR) can have wider ramifications on a global network.

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11. dannyo+v08[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 00:01:44
>>gjsman+ue7
So, just to clarify something here: unless they've radicalised a lot since I've left, EFF doesn't think that DRM should be outlawed. It thinks that governments shouldn't outlaw their citizens from talking about how to circumvent DRM, or criminalize the bypassing of DRM for lawful purposes. As I mentioned in my other comment, the anti-circumvention statutes of the DMCA were controversial enough to fail to pass in the US when they were introduced as part of the original 90s copyright reforms, and were only introduced in the US after they were successfully inserted into the WIPO Copyright Treaty. Those provisions have been pretty controversial ever since, and there have been multiple attempts by many groups and industries to limit the damage since then. (The Copyright Treaty itself can be interpreted to permit circumvention for purposes of fair use or other exceptions and limitations on copyright, and the limitations on individuals communicating about how to circumvent DRM may well be unconstitutional in the US -- the courts haven't really ruled on this.)

EFF and partner groups often contribute to government and international proposals (a hundred-or-so of them have been involved in the cybercrime treaty process for many years https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/01/joint-statement-propos... and I believe got it to a fairly good place before a last-minute push by some states to introduce more surveillance into it.)

You don't really get to hear about the compromises, because you don't really need to kick up a fuss about something that has worked out okay -- and even if you do post about the positive fine print, nobody sends such exciting documents to the front page of Hacker News.

replies(2): >>walter+Y68 >>Michae+wr8
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12. walter+Y68[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 01:06:39
>>dannyo+v08
Thanks for the valuable history lesson!

> even if you do post about the positive fine print, nobody sends such exciting documents to the front page of Hacker News.

>>41241226

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13. bdw520+Ra8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 01:52:17
>>tptace+MM7
Based on the Wikipedia article[0], it seems clear that the Supreme Court can declare a treaty unconstitutional just as it can with a federal statute. The president also appears to have the power to unilaterally withdraw from treaties whenever he wishes and treaties don't take effect without an act of Congress implementing them. In other words, the treaty power is very weak under US law. In short, the US government cannot be bound by any treaty against the will of the people's elected representatives. The fears motivating support for the Bricker Amendment[1] during the Eisenhower administration seem to have been unfounded.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_Clause

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bricker_Amendment

replies(1): >>tptace+Ob8
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14. tptace+Ob8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 02:02:05
>>bdw520+Ra8
The domestic legal terms of any treaty can also be superseded by a simple act of congress, because of the last-in-time rule.
replies(1): >>cma+Yb9
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15. bright+Rb8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 02:02:27
>>walter+Jz
How does the Supreme Court handle interpreting of treaty agreements? It seems like the language of the 1st amendment would prevent the US from entering into an agreement that violated it?
replies(3): >>Apollo+Ee9 >>tptace+sg9 >>jcranm+bu9
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16. shiroi+Bd8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 02:25:01
>>gjsman+ue7
>or hiring the Amish to lecture you on electrical design.

This actually isn't a great example: the Amish do use electricity on their farms. They just don't like to be connected to the grid, so they're big supporters of solar power. They probably know a lot more about electrical design than you think (depending on your definition of "electrical design"). They even have internet-connected computers so they can get orders from customers.

A better example might be hiring the Amish to lecture you on public transit design in dense cities. Not that they're opposed to it, but it's just something far outside their experience (they don't live in dense cities). Or back to electricity, having them lecture you about grid-scale electrical transmission, or nuclear power generation.

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17. Michae+wr8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 05:25:26
>>dannyo+v08
EFF getting more and more extreme in the last few years does seem to be a pretty widely held opinion on HN though.
replies(1): >>dannyo+Du9
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18. red_ad+RQ8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 10:00:25
>>gjsman+ue7
> Many of the most effective NGOs have a "we agree with you, but this 10% needs to change,"

Isn't that exactly what the linked page suggests in this case? Most of the recommendations are things like "Limit Articles 23(2)(c) and 35(1)(c) to Articles 7 to 11 and delete Article 23(2)(b)", not "burn the thing down and start over".

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19. cma+Yb9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 13:14:26
>>tptace+Ob8
Lots of aspects of ease of federal law ignoring treaties is fairly new, like from 2008 rulings.
replies(1): >>tptace+nf9
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20. Apollo+Ee9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 13:34:19
>>bright+Rb8
The US doesn't recognize any court as being above itself. Most countries probably don't either, they're supposed to go back home and get it passed in their own country's system.
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21. tptace+nf9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 13:39:10
>>cma+Yb9
I do not believe that the Senate could override the Constitution by getting Belize to go along with them in 1950, either.
replies(1): >>cma+Gz9
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22. tptace+sg9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 13:45:32
>>bright+Rb8
No treaty supersedes the Constitution; in fact, treaties don't even supersede conflicting federal statutes passed after ratification. Article III courts will overturn treaty enabling statute clauses that are mooted by the Constitution or subsequent federal laws.
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23. jcranm+bu9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 14:56:37
>>bright+Rb8
The short answer: it's really complicated. In a broad stroke, a treaty agreement is roughly akin to Congress passing a law, but the roles of the treaty itself versus enabling laws depends on several factors such as "is the treaty actually a treaty?"

As it pertains to your question, the Constitution (and its amendments) are the supreme law of the land, and a treaty stipulation that requires the government to do something unconstitutional would have no legal effect.

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24. dannyo+Du9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 14:59:05
>>Michae+wr8
I've been EFF adjacent since the nineties, and I think people have always claimed this, often when they have read a call-to-action that uses stronger language than they are comfortable with. I think the causality is that a strongly-worded action gets wider propagation than the more moderate analysis. EFF positions on most matters has been pretty consistent IMHO.
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25. cma+Gz9[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 15:26:28
>>tptace+nf9
Not talking about that aspect (supremacy of it vs constitution), but this and related stuff with treaties vs federal law:

> The enforceability of treaties was further limited in the 2008 Supreme Court decision in Medellín v. Texas, which held that even if a treaty may constitute an international commitment, it is not binding domestic law unless it has been implemented by an act of Congress or is itself explicitly "self-executing".[26] Law scholars called the ruling "an invisible constitutional change" that departed from both longtime historical practice and the plain language of the Supremacy Clause.[27]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause

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