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1. tptace+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-08-13 18:32:08
Yeah, I was only struck by the previous comment's implication that the UN Office of Drugs and Crime might in the ordinary course take and act on feedback from the EFF. Like, it could happen, but it would be very surprising, right?

I think it almost doesn't make sense, in that I perceive EFF to be, whether overtly or not, a very American organization with very American public policy views.

replies(2): >>gjsman+z1 >>dannyo+7M
2. gjsman+z1[view] [source] 2024-08-13 18:37:52
>>tptace+(OP)
The other issue is that the EFF is the minority opinion on many, many subjects. Many of the most effective NGOs have a "we agree with you, but this 10% needs to change," which is flexible enough that governments who otherwise wouldn't care pay attention.

The EFF isn't like that - for example, the idea of outlawing DRM, while popular among hackers and people here, is a total nonstarter internationally. It's about as effective as hiring the FSF to lecture Microsoft; or hiring PETA to lecture Tyson; or hiring the Amish to lecture you on electrical design. The opinions are so diametrically opposed that it's not even worth considering.

replies(4): >>advael+8w >>dannyo+AN >>shiroi+G01 >>red_ad+WD1
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3. advael+8w[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-13 21:32:18
>>gjsman+z1
Not surprisingly, most governments have little to no respect for individual freedom and autonomy. To my understanding, this is among the best reasons not to sign such treaties with said governments, as compromising on principles surrounding fundamental human rights should be a non-starter for those that value them
4. dannyo+7M[view] [source] 2024-08-13 23:49:04
>>tptace+(OP)
I think the best way to think about this is that there are a number of human rights groups who collaborate on critiquing proposed treaties and other international proposals (at the UN, at WIPO, etc). The process tries to incorporate these critiques, as it does with other input (such as that from companies). While it's all real politik in the end, different states have different viewpoints and incentives, and having dedicated experts work with you to understand, criticise, and suggest language or positions is often useful.

In particular, a lot of global proposals come out of the US, especially around IP, so having a US organization say "this is what the US political situation is, this is how this has worked out in the US, and these are the lobbying groups pressuring the US to support this internationally", can be very useful.

I was EFF's international activist and later international director for a number of years. A lot of EFF's rhetoric is aimed at US lawmakers, and its primary USP for change, public impact litigation in the US courts, means that a lot of what you see is oriented toward American audiences and actions.

But behind the scenes, much more of the work than you'd imagine has a global side to it. This has been true since the days of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, elements of which were rejected by the US Congress in the mid-Nineties, then policy-laundered through WIPO into the 1996 Copyright Treaty, which meant that it had to become law after the US Senate consented to it in 1999. (Treaties don't need the support of both houses in the US). EFF and other orgs at the time learned the lesson that regional and international agreements can often be an end-run around local democracy or norms -- and that local laws (from the DMCA to the GDPR) can have wider ramifications on a global network.

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5. dannyo+AN[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 00:01:44
>>gjsman+z1
So, just to clarify something here: unless they've radicalised a lot since I've left, EFF doesn't think that DRM should be outlawed. It thinks that governments shouldn't outlaw their citizens from talking about how to circumvent DRM, or criminalize the bypassing of DRM for lawful purposes. As I mentioned in my other comment, the anti-circumvention statutes of the DMCA were controversial enough to fail to pass in the US when they were introduced as part of the original 90s copyright reforms, and were only introduced in the US after they were successfully inserted into the WIPO Copyright Treaty. Those provisions have been pretty controversial ever since, and there have been multiple attempts by many groups and industries to limit the damage since then. (The Copyright Treaty itself can be interpreted to permit circumvention for purposes of fair use or other exceptions and limitations on copyright, and the limitations on individuals communicating about how to circumvent DRM may well be unconstitutional in the US -- the courts haven't really ruled on this.)

EFF and partner groups often contribute to government and international proposals (a hundred-or-so of them have been involved in the cybercrime treaty process for many years https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2024/01/joint-statement-propos... and I believe got it to a fairly good place before a last-minute push by some states to introduce more surveillance into it.)

You don't really get to hear about the compromises, because you don't really need to kick up a fuss about something that has worked out okay -- and even if you do post about the positive fine print, nobody sends such exciting documents to the front page of Hacker News.

replies(2): >>walter+3U >>Michae+Be1
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6. walter+3U[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 01:06:39
>>dannyo+AN
Thanks for the valuable history lesson!

> even if you do post about the positive fine print, nobody sends such exciting documents to the front page of Hacker News.

>>41241226

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7. shiroi+G01[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 02:25:01
>>gjsman+z1
>or hiring the Amish to lecture you on electrical design.

This actually isn't a great example: the Amish do use electricity on their farms. They just don't like to be connected to the grid, so they're big supporters of solar power. They probably know a lot more about electrical design than you think (depending on your definition of "electrical design"). They even have internet-connected computers so they can get orders from customers.

A better example might be hiring the Amish to lecture you on public transit design in dense cities. Not that they're opposed to it, but it's just something far outside their experience (they don't live in dense cities). Or back to electricity, having them lecture you about grid-scale electrical transmission, or nuclear power generation.

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8. Michae+Be1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 05:25:26
>>dannyo+AN
EFF getting more and more extreme in the last few years does seem to be a pretty widely held opinion on HN though.
replies(1): >>dannyo+Ih2
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9. red_ad+WD1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 10:00:25
>>gjsman+z1
> Many of the most effective NGOs have a "we agree with you, but this 10% needs to change,"

Isn't that exactly what the linked page suggests in this case? Most of the recommendations are things like "Limit Articles 23(2)(c) and 35(1)(c) to Articles 7 to 11 and delete Article 23(2)(b)", not "burn the thing down and start over".

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10. dannyo+Ih2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-08-14 14:59:05
>>Michae+Be1
I've been EFF adjacent since the nineties, and I think people have always claimed this, often when they have read a call-to-action that uses stronger language than they are comfortable with. I think the causality is that a strongly-worded action gets wider propagation than the more moderate analysis. EFF positions on most matters has been pretty consistent IMHO.
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