zlacker

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1. ThisIs+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-02-06 18:30:19
> The whistleblower, whom The Bureau is calling D.M., immigrated to Canada as an international student from India, making him a minority among mostly Chinese-Canadian co-workers at the Aurora branch.

> “I am going to reveal potential mortgage fraud at HSBC Bank Canada and possibly some employees benefited from the fraud, financially pocketing thousands of dollars, which I call the proceeds of crime.”

> FINTRAC’s study doesn’t say that Canadian banks knowingly issued fake-income mortgages to Chinese diaspora buyers in Toronto. But in an interview, D.M. said banking staff are trained to guard against fraud, and the loan application packages he reviewed in Aurora beggared belief.

> The Bureau’s review of HSBC Canada emails and D.M.’s text messages, shows he came to believe numerous employees at the Aurora branch had direct knowledge of faked Chinese income mortgages, and a veteran manager with oversight of more than 10 Greater Toronto branches knew about broad and questionable mortgage lending for Chinese diaspora clients.

> Pointing to specific examples, D.M. claimed that another branch colleague had admitted processing numerous loan applications without meeting his clients, because a branch manager delivered her subordinates foreign income client applications so “they did not have to get sales themselves.”

> “She said yes, she knows specially in Mainland China there is a team who would even answer emails and phone calls verifying [Chinese income] but it’s a sophisticated and well organised scam,” D.M. 's email to HSBC Canada managers says. [...] “When I asked for such a serious issue if she raised a HSBC confidential [complaint] or not she evaded my question,” D.M. wrote. “Now we all love numbers, but I don't think the bank will like these kinds of numbers achieved through this way.”

Sounds like that branch is compromised

replies(6): >>radica+Kj >>topspi+9w >>cyanyd+da1 >>ajkjk+Uy1 >>hoseja+u12 >>rokkit+pY2
2. radica+Kj[view] [source] 2024-02-06 19:51:12
>>ThisIs+(OP)
Are US banks just a lot more strict about source of income than Canadian banks?
replies(8): >>mistri+up >>JumpCr+8t >>cbsmit+hv >>dghlsa+Rw >>bonest+hE >>rconti+e51 >>joshua+TD1 >>cbsmit+Lz7
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3. mistri+up[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-06 20:17:11
>>radica+Kj
a non-trivial portion of residential real estate transactions across the USA never apply for a loan. In certain areas it is more so. When real estate retail value rises fast, money appears from everywhere -- hint, not from first time home buyers.

The USA Federal system of mortgage loan gurantees has been gamed seriously, over and over since the 80s. It is a whack-a-mole for enforcement. All the parties close to the transactions have exactly the wrong incentives, most of the time. One of the defendants in a recent "pay cash to get your kid into elite school via fake sports" scandal was a mortgage broker in San Diego County. The Judge after reviewing evidence, reportedly told the man on the record "you are a thief." etc

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4. JumpCr+8t[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-06 20:34:03
>>radica+Kj
> Are US banks just a lot more strict about source of income than Canadian banks?

American financial regulators are much more comfortable letting banks fail than their Canadian or European counterparts. (In part this is because of the sheer diversity of banks we have.) Being fined out of existence is a real possibility for an American bank. That shapes behavior.

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5. cbsmit+hv[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-06 20:44:05
>>radica+Kj
Short answer: no.
6. topspi+9w[view] [source] 2024-02-06 20:48:02
>>ThisIs+(OP)
> Sounds like that branch is compromised

"Since 2015, the whistleblower concluded, more than 10 Toronto-area HSBC branches had issued at least $500-million"

It's not a branch. It's the whole bank. And you can safely infer it's not the only bank.

replies(2): >>bonest+RD >>throwa+Bb1
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7. dghlsa+Rw[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-06 20:51:30
>>radica+Kj
Total conjecture: 1. US banks do not face nearly as diverse a set of applicants, and 2. are only required to hold the loan for 5 years.

1. It is very common in Canada for a person with wealth acquired outside the country to apply for a home loan. At the time I was approved as a guarantor for a home loan for over half a million CAD, I had only been in the country for 2 years, and had no credit history with any Canadian institution (out of laziness I just was added to my wife's accounts as a signer and cardholder when I moved). They accepted copies of my American credit history and bank statements, but had no real way to verify their truth. In the US, I don't think that (relatively) wealthy immigrants wanting a home loan are nearly as common. Richmond, BC is a great example of this: avg home price is 1.5mm and 60% of the residents are immigrants.

2. Canadian mortgages are refinanced every five years, traditionally (it is possible to get a longer term, but very uncommon). Combine this with the fact that Canadian real estate has ALWAYS gone up (until now), and financing a home really wasn't a risky thing. If a bank didn't like a customer, they could refuse to refinance after 5 years. If a bank foreclosed, they were basically guaranteed to be made whole.

replies(3): >>raydev+NH >>seanmc+BT >>random+7K1
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8. bonest+RD[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-06 21:23:41
>>topspi+9w
Don't get me wrong, it's definitely a problem, and something needs to be done, but lets also try to keep it in perspective... $500 million could well be 500 mortgages in Toronto. That would be about 0.02% of the private dwellings in Toronto.
replies(2): >>Rehanz+201 >>simmer+551
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9. bonest+hE[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-06 21:25:35
>>radica+Kj
No. I've purchased homes in both countries and from what I've seen, US banks are far less strict. Policies, procedures, and operations are very undisciplined at many US banks (compared to Canadian banks). I have noticed some are starting to become more strict in the past 5 years though.
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10. raydev+NH[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-06 21:41:47
>>dghlsa+Rw
> They accepted copies of my American credit history and bank statements, but had no real way to verify their truth

I'm skeptical here, given how closely the US and Canada work together, both US and Canadian banks share an incredible amount of info with each other and not solely because of cross-border commerce. There is also a non-trivial number of US citizens living and working in Canada so there are services available to them given their special tax requirements.

replies(1): >>dghlsa+MN
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11. dghlsa+MN[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-06 22:09:41
>>raydev+NH
If you have information that contradicts what multiple banks have told me I would love to know it, since it would be very nice to have that information available to my Canadian bankers.

In the 3 banks I've worked with in Canada, all were completely unable to access my American credit history.

The governments do share tax data, but AFAIK the banks have no way to link "John Smith SSN:123-45-6789" to "John Smith SIN:098-76-54321". They even have my US SSN number since Canadian banks report to the IRS.

Edit: here's experian explaining it: https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/u-s-credit-histo...

replies(1): >>joshua+AE1
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12. seanmc+BT[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-06 22:38:13
>>dghlsa+Rw
I got the feeling that the HSBC in Bellevue Washington catered primarily to overseas Chinese clients looking to buy homes in the Seattle area. Most of the employees spoke some dialect of Chinese. I have no idea about the loan officers, however.
replies(1): >>pchris+lY
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13. pchris+lY[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-06 23:04:19
>>seanmc+BT
Bellevue's population is ~14% Chinese, over 21,000 people, and mostly high income tech salaries. It would be bad business not to have Chinese speakers on staff.
replies(2): >>FireBe+bv1 >>seanmc+JC3
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14. Rehanz+201[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-06 23:13:49
>>bonest+RD
It says "at least". It's also looking at specific branches of one single bank. Who knows the true extent if all banks and branches are considered.
replies(1): >>bonest+V61
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15. simmer+551[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-06 23:43:20
>>bonest+RD
Remember this is $500 million awarded to people out competing honest Canadians looking for housing who aren't lying about their incomes.

If 10 people bid for a house, it's the guy in China lying about their income setting the house price when they win, by what HSBC is doing. This will have an outsized effect on the market.

replies(4): >>cyanyd+ja1 >>maxglu+fj1 >>Peteri+Ul1 >>fennec+so1
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16. rconti+e51[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-06 23:44:15
>>radica+Kj
TFA says: "The official noted that other nations require tax agencies to verify incomes for mortgages, which isn’t the case in Canada."

I don't know if it's a legal requirement, but I sure know I had to hand over all of _our_tax information to the bank to validate income when getting a mortgage in the US. You have to sign a form saying the bank is allowed to pul your data from the IRS; you're not just handing over paperwork and promising that it's legit.

replies(1): >>pxmpxm+r71
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17. bonest+V61[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-06 23:55:21
>>Rehanz+201
Ya, fair enough, and some Toronto mortgages are more than a million too.
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18. pxmpxm+r71[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-06 23:58:28
>>rconti+e51
This - not sure where the sentiment in this thread is coming from, but you have to disclose your tax filings for the last 2/3 years along with all your bank accounts and recent statements.
19. cyanyd+da1[view] [source] 2024-02-07 00:17:38
>>ThisIs+(OP)
upstream, the problem is _still_ the commoditization of housing markets.

it's not like they're claiming these people are unable to pay.

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20. cyanyd+ja1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 00:18:41
>>simmer+551
yes, remember it's capitalism doing this, not Chinese, Indian, Canadian or American.

hail free market.

replies(3): >>techbr+ec1 >>vineya+ll1 >>Allege+D22
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21. throwa+Bb1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 00:28:34
>>topspi+9w
Witnessed this first hand at RBC when my brother from Hong Kong was inquiring about getting a mortgage in Toronto since he wants to move back to Canada with his two young kids.

We found a random mortgage specialist (a Chinese lady) at RBC. Without knowing the full picture of my brother's income situation, she immediately suggested that she could get the mortgage approved regardless, just needed to fake some documents.

It was astonishing how she went straight to the point so quickly to someone she met the first time.

She also said a lot of people has non-taxed income and needed a way to get a mortgage before the real estate price becomes out of reach.

So definitely not just HSBC.

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22. techbr+ec1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 00:33:48
>>cyanyd+ja1
This is not an inherent feature of capitalism. This is a failure of the government to create a fair market. This is caused by people that are subverting the rules to out compete the people playing by the rules.
replies(2): >>yukkur+jg1 >>porknu+XC1
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23. yukkur+jg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 01:11:23
>>techbr+ec1
Tell that to the capitalists always protesting that there's no need for regulations
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24. maxglu+fj1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 01:36:09
>>simmer+551
Except HSBC knows 99/100 of the time, those bidders in PRC are actually wealthier bidders and that the irregular paperwork is perfunctory to the fact that the system has spend decades building loopholes for said wealthy PRC buyers with developed methods of capital flight, which has always made them better candidates than "honest" Canadians. Occasional fraud doesn't have outsized effect to the very real fact that there are simply more wealthy PRC buyers than Canadian ones, and sellers/bankers/ everyone who gains in the transactions wants it that way. Honest Canadians with 200k household income and 10% down can't compete against PRC buyer with millions of slightly illiquid assets. These PRC buyers are the same as rich Indian/Iranian/insert elite from other country buyers, there's just a shit load more of them and they have to jump through more hoops due to capital controls on PRC's end which Canada RE system is all too happy to ignore.
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25. vineya+ll1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 01:55:35
>>cyanyd+ja1
Capitalism doesn’t have to mean an unregulated free market. That’s one flavor of capitalism.
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26. Peteri+Ul1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 02:01:18
>>simmer+551
It's $500m that went to "honest Canadians" selling their real estate. The house isn't gone, it's still there, and will probably get sold to Canadians when the bubble pops, possibly much cheaper.
replies(1): >>fennec+No1
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27. fennec+so1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 02:26:18
>>simmer+551
NZ has this problem but with real buyers regardless. Chinese citizens evading laws as much as they can to buy houses and flip them, sometimes hours later.

Laws like "you must live in the house for 1 year before selling" meant they just sent a relative to live there free before selling for higher price.

Like investors and companies chasing ever higher profits, there's a bunch of people that think the house they own should be worth 100000% more by the time they sell it.

Even had a gen x friend be like "Well I pay rates (council services fees) while I own the property so it should be worth more!"

Bruh, getting your rubbish taken away while you live there doesn't add value to the fucking house. Otherwise I could claim paying my electricity bill while I live there does too.

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28. fennec+No1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 02:28:03
>>Peteri+Ul1
Ahaha, the bubble popping. That'll be the day. All they're doing is increasing house prices for no reason. Houses are now just casino chips for rich people.
replies(1): >>Peteri+Oq1
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29. Peteri+Oq1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 02:50:29
>>fennec+No1
On the other hand if it doesn't pop, then it literally doesn't matter if the income documents were fake, as the bank has good collateral and giving the loan turned out not to be a mistake.
replies(3): >>xyzzy_+Wr1 >>antist+7D1 >>medvez+MH1
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30. xyzzy_+Wr1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 03:02:11
>>Peteri+Oq1
Now you're thinking like a bank.
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31. FireBe+bv1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 03:33:12
>>pchris+lY
> 14% Chinese, over 21,000 people, and mostly high income tech salaries. It would be bad business not to have Chinese speakers on staff.

What language do these Chinese tech workers speak at their jobs?

replies(2): >>pchris+rw1 >>daniel+4L1
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32. pchris+rw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 03:43:57
>>FireBe+bv1
It depends on the composition of their teams, but probably something different than their most comfortable, native language.
33. ajkjk+Uy1[view] [source] 2024-02-07 04:05:38
>>ThisIs+(OP)
Your first thought is to.. assume the bank is probably misunderstood?
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34. porknu+XC1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 04:50:17
>>techbr+ec1
I have seen a lot that smaller, high trust places where people worry about long term reputation, status etc are not good at competing with large immigrant populations who do not have any stake in maintaining a reputation in the community.
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35. antist+7D1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 04:52:30
>>Peteri+Oq1
Oh, and think of the tax revenue! ;)
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36. joshua+TD1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 05:00:14
>>radica+Kj
Yes, but it’s partly the government’s fault. There’s literally no way for mortgage lenders to pull your tax records in order to verify income. There used to be some third party services to connect to the CRA but they got shut down and replaced with… nothing.
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37. joshua+AE1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 05:06:26
>>dghlsa+MN
Yes this is accurate. I work at a lender that operated in both Canada and the US and the credit bureau integrations were with totally different companies and had different APIs (even for Equifax on both sides of the border)
replies(1): >>VK538F+VZ2
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38. medvez+MH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 05:40:05
>>Peteri+Oq1
Fraud is fraud, so it does matter. Same way that SBF is still going to jail even if the people with money in FTX get their money back (via crypto rising again / the AI investment).

The real people harmed were the Canadians trying to start a family who got outbid on the house.

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39. random+7K1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 06:05:15
>>dghlsa+Rw
> Canadian real estate has ALWAYS gone up (until now)

Have always gone up expect for when they haven't. Nationally, real estate prices dropped precipitously in the early 1980s. And the Toronto housing crash of 1989 was a complete meltdown. It took until the 2010s for prices to finally return to where they were in 1989!

replies(1): >>dghlsa+XN4
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40. daniel+4L1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 06:13:15
>>FireBe+bv1
You can have a tech vocabulary but not know what a secured property is for example. Maybe a non native would know the word secure and the word property and make an erroneous assumption.

It’s probably the biggest purchase in your life so it makes sense you want to know all details.

41. hoseja+u12[view] [source] 2024-02-07 08:55:34
>>ThisIs+(OP)
>Sounds like that branch is compromised

By all accounts it seems the whole country is.

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42. Allege+D22[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 09:05:04
>>cyanyd+ja1
> capitalism is whatever I feel is bad about it > bad actors define capitalism

Sure thing bud.

43. rokkit+pY2[view] [source] 2024-02-07 15:35:58
>>ThisIs+(OP)
HSBC is rotten to the core. Regular judgements against them for facilitating outlawed behavior, zero systemic reform.
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44. VK538F+VZ2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 15:42:59
>>joshua+AE1
It's been a while but I don't even think that a credit score in Canada is comparable to a credit score in the US. Sure, an Equifax terminal in either country spits out a number in the same range but the formula and calculation are probably different, with different legal frameworks regarding the information contained therein.
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45. seanmc+JC3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-07 18:31:50
>>pchris+lY
Yes. But you know, Bellevue is almost as Indian (12%) as it is Chinese (14%), so HSBC is definitely specializing in this case. Not that I'm complaining. They also have a lot of customers who don't speak much english at all, obviously not techies (but maybe the aging parents of techies).

It definitely isn't Richmond though.

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46. dghlsa+XN4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-08 01:47:46
>>random+7K1
Yes, I understand that this isn't strictly true.

I guess a more accurate way to put it is that there is almost no one working in banking or any mortgages currently written where a major correction has happened. Canada wasn't whacked in 2008 nearly as bad as the US, and the early 1990s property corrections were much more regionally focused (Toronto got the worst of it), in Edmonton, 1989 and 1990 prices increased more than 20%. Basically there is no one with first hand experience in managing an upside-down housing portfolio.

Basically, for most property markets in Canada, plowing your money into property has been a historically better bet than the TSX.

replies(1): >>random+vr6
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47. random+vr6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-08 15:36:19
>>dghlsa+XN4
There was the crash of 2022, seeing a nearly 30% haircut nationally while at the bottom. For comparison, the US housing crash of the oughts saw a peak decline of 33%. Everyone in banking was surely around to see that major correction happen.

Granted, the market had ramped up so quickly, and then crashed so fast, that the number of underwater mortgages was likely small – and probably haven't come up for renewal yet. So, you're right that there isn't much management experience, and may never be.

replies(1): >>dghlsa+S67
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48. dghlsa+S67[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-08 18:36:40
>>random+vr6
Where are you getting a 30% drop in 2022? The BoC data shows <10% from the absolute peak to the absolute trough. https://housepriceindex.ca/#chart_change=c11

If you cherry pick the localized data, even the worst off suburbs of Toronto you see a dip of just over 22% with a pretty quick reversion to the mean. If you look at metro areas, none of the cities in Canada saw greater than 10% drops from 2022 peaks, and they have all recovered from the bottom.

replies(1): >>random+GR8
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49. cbsmit+Lz7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-08 20:49:14
>>radica+Kj
Looks like my short answer wasn't well received, so I'll try a longer answer: https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-seeks-crack-down-real-es...

The irony is the US talks a lot about financial transparency for other countries, but the US itself is the preferred place if you're looking to launder money.

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50. random+GR8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-09 07:42:11
>>dghlsa+S67
CREA.
replies(1): >>dghlsa+cna
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51. dghlsa+cna[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-09 18:15:18
>>random+GR8
ah. CREA reported a ~30% drop in average sale price across all transactions, true. That is very different than a 30% drop in the value all real estate.

If you break it out into type of home, it shows that the average price drop is about ~10% for any given market. This shows that consumers in 2022 shifted buying preferences from expensive home types to cheaper home types. This makes a lot of sense given the push for multi family housing and rising interest rates.

The value of individual housing didn't change 30%, it was mostly just a market shift towards cheaper housing. If people shift from buying Mercedes to buying Kia, the average transaction price for a car will fall a lot, but that doesn't mean that Mercedes is on sale for cheap.

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