zlacker

[parent] [thread] 20 comments
1. ianai+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-01-28 15:58:23
It's finding a way to input the external costs of consumption of emissive products into their final price(s). In reality, a gallon of gas causes significantly more damage than the price paid at the pump - it was like $16/gallon when I saw a figure for it around 2010. Imagine how much differently a world with $20/gallon gas would look. There'd probably be massive pressures from all corners to move away from oil.
replies(3): >>trimet+r1 >>nojvek+nu >>Shocka+Yi6
2. trimet+r1[view] [source] 2024-01-28 16:09:25
>>ianai+(OP)
Gas was just under $4 a liter every time I've been to Europe. That's about $16/gallon. People were driving to work, and sitting in traffic, just like they do in the US.
replies(2): >>ianai+R1 >>Adrian+33
◧◩
3. ianai+R1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 16:12:15
>>trimet+r1
For there, that'd be 32/gallon with the old figure I used.
replies(1): >>trimet+0o1
◧◩
4. Adrian+33[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 16:19:53
>>trimet+r1
Gas was never above $2 per liter in Europe, you are mistaken. The highest gas price I've ever seen was close to $2 per liter, a bit below (~1.90, maybe).
replies(2): >>trimet+y8 >>sobani+Vz5
◧◩◪
5. trimet+y8[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 16:49:15
>>Adrian+33
Depends where and when. Regardless you're around $7.50 per gallon today. That's more than double the price in the US. Globally, fuel is relatively cheap right now.
6. nojvek+nu[view] [source] 2024-01-28 19:06:49
>>ianai+(OP)
I am personally pretty opposed to taxing co2 emissions and playing games with carbon credit.

We should not be making energy expensive for the lay person.

Provide subsidies to build new solar, wind and nuclear farms - sure.

The world will quickly adapt renewable energy if it is much cheaper and convenient to use it.

In similar vein, for god sake don’t tax solar panels above usual tax rate. I’m looking at Arizona.

The biggest mistake any democratic government can make is life more expensive and miserable for their population.

That seldom goes well.

replies(3): >>ianai+zG >>angra_+qe2 >>scoofy+4o3
◧◩
7. ianai+zG[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 20:33:16
>>nojvek+nu
I kind of agree. Right now, too, what is happening is what you describe. The other options are getting cheaper and will eventually be the cost effective solution. On the other, taxing societal negatives is exactly how to disincentivize them. But at least have an industry for remediating the effects of emissions.

Also see above where I said to build out nuclear asap and at economically significant rates.

◧◩◪
8. trimet+0o1[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-29 02:58:23
>>ianai+R1
Do you have any example of a country driving less when fuel costs were ALWAYS higher? I would guess short term, yes, but eventually people will drive just as much, and they will spend less on housing, which will decrease costs of housing to allow for a larger portion of income to pay for gas. That seems like basic economics to me. Unless, you have a real world example that contrasts that. People still have to get to work. They still have to pick up their kids from school. It doesn't matter what gas costs. They still have to. Just like they are paying double for it in Europe today, they will pay whatever it costs.
replies(1): >>ianai+Ua2
◧◩◪◨
9. ianai+Ua2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-29 11:53:12
>>trimet+0o1
Absolutely, when gas doubled during the Great Recession I personally saw much less traffic on the roads in the major US city I lived in at the time. People were also much less aggressive on the roads. Unlike those days, people can now offset their use of oil for transportation with BEVs and PHEVs. See recent reports of oil/gas demand seemingly plateaued to decreasing.

When the price of something increases, energy included, alternatives become more attractive. Oil enjoyed strong price insensitivities for a long time, but those days are sunsetting.

Even China is seeing this with their “lying flat” movement. Dowries for a marriage are averaging USD 60,000(per The Economist). So instead men aren’t dating and aren’t doing the 996.

Russia is seeing it in European nations building LNG infrastructure at their major ports and taking deliveries from overseas. That’s a long term loss of business. And those same European nations are incentivizing their citizens to replace heaters with heatpumps and other means of reducing fossil fuel use.

When prices and costs increase people are incentivized to decide to go with alternatives.

replies(2): >>trimet+qH3 >>trimet+vV3
◧◩
10. angra_+qe2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-29 12:29:17
>>nojvek+nu
Question for anyone reading, why do I see some comments (like this one) greyed out? Never understood it.

Is it something like a downvoted comment? I fail to see a downvote button (which I am happy about).

replies(2): >>nojvek+RI2 >>pas+zC4
◧◩◪
11. nojvek+RI2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-29 15:30:55
>>angra_+qe2
If a comment goes below 0 (total votes), it gets greyed out.

I've found HN pretty divided when it comes topics like energy/climate/electric vehicles, immigration and foreign policy.

Before I used to feel bad, now I somewhat expect to be downvoted bringing up anything that doesn't fit someone's worldview.

I lived a decade in Seattle, WA which is a strong blue/liberal state as it goes. Sometimes pretty extreme. Now I am in Florida which is now a solid red state since Trump. It's interesting to see how the thought bubbles and world views have formed.

◧◩
12. scoofy+4o3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-29 18:14:50
>>nojvek+nu
>The biggest mistake any democratic government can make is life more expensive and miserable for their population.

>That seldom goes well.

We are the richest nation in the world, so calling life "miserable" is hyperbole beyond belief. You talk about this like it's a new problem.

We have been trying to get a carbon tax since literally 1992, but the response is always the type of nonsense your suggesting, which is designed to be feel-good bs.

If we want to stop climate change, we have to change our behavior, period. We could have done that slowly, but we chose to not do it at all.

If you're worried about life being miserable... buckle up.

◧◩◪◨⬒
13. trimet+qH3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-29 19:24:58
>>ianai+Ua2
I maybe don't understand the point of downvoting. Am I unwelcome on HN because of a differing opinion that strikes actual thought about a topic that is overwhelmingly run by a one sided story of solar good?

It would be fine if it didn't prevent me from replying. But since it does, it feels exactly like you covering my mouth while you yell in my face.

It surely doesn't make me think that I should vote for solar. If anything it makes me sure that people aren't doing any critical thinking. Aren't interested in scientific debate. And are simply pushing a marketing agenda without discussion. The Nazis did the same thing. I'll take CO2 over a world where we can't speak any day. It inspires me to rally against solar. Surely if it was scientifically sound it would be easy to defend without covering my mouth?

Go ahead and downvote again. It says everything I need to know about YC and HN and the kind of regard that you people have for human life, which is apparently none.

An echo chamber of lies and self serving agenda. Certainly not a place for science. And definitely not for the betterment of the environment. It's disgusting in short.

◧◩◪◨⬒
14. trimet+vV3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-29 20:25:13
>>ianai+Ua2
Okay, I'm going to give you the Great Recession, despite the fact that it was temporary which is counter to your argument. And despite the fact that you can't tell if it's causal or not. For all we know, people drove less because they had no job to drive to. And in response, gasoline prices went up to compensate for lesser sales, while operating costs remained unchanged. Or, in short, gas prices went up because we drove less. A similar argument could be made for Europe today. High gas prices, because they drive less. Not less than they used to, but less. Meanwhile operating costs are the same.

But let's take it. So the assumption is that there is an alternative that is better than gasoline. Nuclear is largely dominant on the coasts and gasoline usage is roughly half for goods delivery across the middle of the country where everything is coal powered. So at least for the moment, do you prefer reliance on gasoline or coal for goods delivery?

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/use-of-energy/transporta...

◧◩◪
15. pas+zC4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-30 00:19:21
>>angra_+qe2
downvote buttons appear somewhere above ~500 karma and as a comment gets old the downvote button disappears
◧◩◪
16. sobani+Vz5[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-30 10:15:48
>>Adrian+33
Weighted average prices up to €2.40: https://brandstofdata.nl/brandstof/benzine/2022
17. Shocka+Yi6[view] [source] 2024-01-30 15:23:04
>>ianai+(OP)
If gas was magically $16 a gallon tomorrow, it would amplify inflation. Markets and their workers would demand wage increases, which would of course trickle to everything else.

And yes, imagine what this would look like at $20 a gallon :/

replies(1): >>michae+kV6
◧◩
18. michae+kV6[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-30 18:10:39
>>Shocka+Yi6
There's a fascinating book that explores this exact thing, in $1/gal increments. Worth reading.
replies(1): >>Shocka+Yxa
◧◩◪
19. Shocka+Yxa[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-31 18:28:58
>>michae+kV6
Well you gotta drop the book name with that nugget!
replies(1): >>michae+q8b
◧◩◪◨
20. michae+q8b[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-31 21:34:24
>>Shocka+Yxa
https://www.timesunion.com/opinion/article/20-gasoline-don-t... is a short opinion piece on it with some links and such.
replies(1): >>Shocka+Ibd
◧◩◪◨⬒
21. Shocka+Ibd[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-02-01 16:19:30
>>michae+q8b
Thanks for that link. I'd love to see how the author factors in inflation with the thought experiment. Reviews on Amazon don't mention this at all unfortunately.
[go to top]