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[parent] [thread] 18 comments
1. yungpo+(OP)[view] [source] 2024-01-28 09:00:14
i don't think overpopulation is the problem, but maybe it's a symptom. the problem is we've forced our way up to an unrealistically high standard of living which is completely unsustainable, and now we're trapped in an inescapable death spiral because nobody wants to go back.

people aren't willing to stop paying for conveniences because they're cheaply available, corporations aren't willing to stop selling them because there's a demand for it and money to be made, and governments aren't willing to force anybody's hand because the people and corporations will both force them out of power if they try.

there is absolutely no chance of breaking out of it other than giving up on democracy, but that will only happen when modern society collapses entirely, which will be far too late to prevent unimaginable suffering on a massive scale.

replies(4): >>okr+b1 >>mytail+K1 >>lacrim+52 >>jdthed+Vc
2. okr+b1[view] [source] 2024-01-28 09:13:58
>>yungpo+(OP)
Yea, yea, people making their life better is now the reason. We must all live in poverty, because that is the natural state, where we obey the needs of nature. Nature is healing!! And for that we need to abandon demoncracy.

And the leader should be who? Of course you, because only you know the solution! Cheeky ;)

replies(2): >>yungpo+i2 >>retwer+Yl7
3. mytail+K1[view] [source] 2024-01-28 09:17:43
>>yungpo+(OP)
Whether standards of living are sustainable depend on how many people live that way.

Obviously they are not unsustainable in absolute terms but only when too many people live that way compared to the planetary capacity.

So population is inescapably key because we want everyone to have high standards of living.

4. lacrim+52[view] [source] 2024-01-28 09:21:39
>>yungpo+(OP)
Even if it all grinds to a halt tomorrow, at this point it won’t make a difference anymore. It’s the end of an era, possibly of civilization too, at least this particular flavor of it.
replies(1): >>yungpo+H2
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5. yungpo+i2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 09:23:46
>>okr+b1
you can put your fingers in your ears and say "la la la" all you want, it doesn't change the undeniable and objective truth.

everybody knows the solution, *you* know the solution, it's just a hard pill to swallow so mental gymnastics are preferable.

as a species we know that the overconsumption of resources is the problem. there are exactly zero valid arguments against that. anybody who claims that consuming less resources *isn't* the solution is either ignorant or lying.

replies(2): >>chii+s3 >>goatlo+ch
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6. yungpo+H2[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 09:26:32
>>lacrim+52
it would make a huge difference. sure, we can't undo the damage that has been done, but things can and will get way, way worse as we carry on without changing anything.
replies(1): >>127361+M4
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7. chii+s3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 09:33:43
>>yungpo+i2
> consuming less resources isn't the solution

it isn't, because no solution that require any form of altruism is an actual solution.

replies(1): >>yungpo+V3
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8. yungpo+V3[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 09:39:50
>>chii+s3
meh, semantics. the only correct answers to the question of "how do we prevent the suffering caused by the overconsumption of resources?" are "consume less resources." or "pull more resources out of thin air using magic". whether people are unable/unwilling to do it or not is neither here or there.
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9. 127361+M4[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 09:47:58
>>yungpo+H2
The human species might have a built in self-destruct / self-limiting mechanism, which is world war, possibly nuclear war, which might end up saving the planet in the really long term?
replies(1): >>lacrim+RG
10. jdthed+Vc[view] [source] 2024-01-28 11:15:13
>>yungpo+(OP)
"Standards of living" are not some kind of homogeneous global state.

The true hard pill to swallow is that YOUR (and a few others') standard of living is unsustainable.

replies(2): >>layer8+7g >>yungpo+2q
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11. layer8+7g[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 11:45:29
>>jdthed+Vc
The majority of Earth's population would like to have that standard of living and strives for it.
replies(1): >>jdthed+sh
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12. goatlo+ch[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 11:55:04
>>yungpo+i2
It's not overconsumption, it's waste and pollution that are the problems. Cleaner technologies and policies are the solution. We could have decarbonized part of the economy already with nuclear power.

Degrowth is not a viable alternative on a world that's still has a large number of people that need better standards of living, and will still be adding a couple billion to the population. There's no viable economic or political model that would make degrowth work.

replies(1): >>yungpo+1o
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13. jdthed+sh[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 11:57:48
>>layer8+7g
There is a difference between striving for basic amenities like clean water, healthy food etc, and the luxury of ordering vanities off Amazon every other day..

Not everyone desires the latter, yet it appears to be the much more environmentally impactful one at least at scale..

replies(1): >>layer8+Mm
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14. layer8+Mm[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 12:46:12
>>jdthed+sh
I would argue that the majority of people do want conveniences like the latter example you give. The "American Dream", if you will.
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15. yungpo+1o[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 12:55:20
>>goatlo+ch
it is overconsumption. for one, it would be much easier to need our needs with renewable energy sources if we just consumed less energy and weren't so wasteful with it. more to the point, energy is only one part of the problem. all the clean, free energy in the universe doesn't stop deforestation, overfishing, and other habitat loss and environmental damage from unsustainable agriculture as a result of overconsumption. solving the emissions issue doesn't count for much if all the ecosystems we rely on collapse and we starve to death anyway.

degrowth is the only thing that could work at all, the lack of compatible economic and political models that would be compatible with is exactly my point, which is why we will ultimately not solve the problem.

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16. yungpo+2q[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 13:11:23
>>jdthed+Vc
my standard of living is very sustainable. i don't drive, i don't eat meat, i rarely eat dairy, my electricity is 100% renewably sourced, i recycle diligently, i heat my home to the absolute bare mininum temperature required to be liveable and rely on wearing extra layers for warmth, i don't spend hours using power-hungry entertainment devices, i've been wearing the same shoes and clothes for ~4-5 years and i only replace things when they completely break, or if replacing it allows me to use less energy or be less wasteful in the future. it's not hard.

some of the "innocent poor countries" you're talking about are the worst offenders for deforestation, pollution, and other habitat destruction. get off of your high horse, we are all responsible for the state of the planet we live on.

replies(1): >>jdthed+Rz
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17. jdthed+Rz[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 14:14:52
>>yungpo+2q
The point wasn't about you specifically, just about the average Western/1st World citizen.

> some of the "innocent poor countries" you're talking about are the worst offenders for deforestation, pollution, and other habitat destruction. get off of your high horse, we are all responsible for the state of the planet we live on.

For their own sake? Or is it, among others, Western offshore companies who partake in what you blame those darn third worlders for? It's a global economy.

Think of coffee for example. Pretty sure we consume orders of magnitude more of it in the West than the rest of the World. Yet, the coffee bean plantations aren't exactly at our doors- Instead they replace forests in Guatemala, Columbia, Indonesia, etc.

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18. lacrim+RG[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-28 15:03:37
>>127361+M4
The planet will survive regardless, with or without a nuclear war. We won’t though and most current species will dissapear
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19. retwer+Yl7[view] [source] [discussion] 2024-01-30 16:26:24
>>okr+b1
This is a bad faith take, and against the rules.
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