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1. sillys+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-12-09 00:50:30
Israeli leaders have been quoted as saying they intend to erase Gaza, flatten Gaza, etc. Their top general has called Palestinian civilians "human animals". The PM has been quoting bible verse to justify genocide. There is no question Israel is murdering civilians as a goal not by happenstance. And, they didn't begin only with this latest massacre. Israeli leaders have a euphemism for their periodic massacres of Palestinian civilians; they call it, "mowing the lawn."

E.g., only a few years ago, there was a peaceful march of thousands of Palestinians demanding their right to return to their homes on the other side of the separation wall. The Israelis opened fire with live ammunition, murdering 200, and maiming thousands more-- it appears the Israeli snipers were aiming for the protesters' kneecaps to permanently disable them. The protesters were unarmed. Zero coverage in the western corporate press.

In a prior massacre of Gaza that the Israelis called, "Operation Cast Lead", the Israeli snipers wore shirts with a picture of a pregnant women in the cross hairs of a rifle, with the slogan (in Hebrew) below, "One bullet, two kills."

And, as has been ongoing continuously for decades, Palestinians were forced from their homes by Israeli settlers only days before the October attacks. And there was a murder of Palestinians by Israeli settlers also only days before the attack-- these things happen literally all the time, so it is expected that there would be.

Israel has also kidnapped more civilians including children than they released in the prisoner exchange since they began this most recent massacre of Gaza. If you paid attention, the hostages Israel released were in large part women and children, held for years without charge, and under indefinite detention. Two of the children they released were two 14 year old boys who were 11 or 12 when kidnapped by Israel, and they were released into an area where there is no way for a Palestinian to travel to the area their families reside, as Israel prohibits Palestinian travel. There were plenty of younger child hostages released by Israel as well. These kidnappings (without charge and indefinite detention) are also a constant occurrence. Pretty much a guarantee, if you are caught demonstrating against the occupation.

replies(2): >>sabarn+62 >>rendal+N3
2. sabarn+62[view] [source] 2023-12-09 01:06:11
>>sillys+(OP)
So what should Israel do as a concrete step. If your only answers is right of return you have an unworkable first step.
replies(1): >>sillys+y6
3. rendal+N3[view] [source] 2023-12-09 01:18:34
>>sillys+(OP)
> Palestinians were forced from their homes by Israeli settlers only days before the October attacks.

You know there are zero Jews in Gaza, right? No Israeli settlers at all. They are flat out forbidden to go there.

replies(2): >>sillys+cb >>frabbi+th
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4. sillys+y6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 01:39:55
>>sabarn+62
This would be a good start. Begin an honest conversation of the current situation, and how we got there.

The closest thing to a just resolution, at this point, would be for Israel to allow Palestinians to return to their homes in what is now called Israel. Remove the laws from the books that favor Jewish Israeli citizens over non-Jewish citizens of Israel-- e.g., no more Jewish only roads. The demographics will change. Jews will be a minority. Place names will likely return to their original names. Jewish extremists will likely engage in terrorism, but hopefully the violence will be short lived. Many Jews (those of European decent, in large part, maintain dual citizenship with European countries / the US) will, likely, voluntarily leave. The rest will have to incorporate themselves into this new reality of a single state where the indigenous Palestinians are equal citizens.

The vast majority of Israeli Jews are living on recently stolen land, even inside recently stolen homes. Much of this must go back to their rightful owners for there to be justice. But, the Jewish newcomers can remain. Under Muslim Ottoman rule, the region now know as Israel/Palestine was multi-religious with mostly peaceful coexistence. It can be that again.

Israel has foreclosed any possibility of a "two state" solution with their continuous settling of Palestinian land. There no longer exists any Palestinian controlled land to create a Palestinian state separate from that major portion of their land that is now called Israel that was stolen and given to the Jewish settlers by the British after WWI.

What happened to Jews in Europe in WWII was horrific, but Palestinians had nothing to do with that. What is currently happening to the Palestinians is similar to what the Jews in Europe experienced. But, this time, the Zionist Jews are the oppressor. The actions of Israel are creating an environment around the world where people predisposed to antisemitism can point at an example of how evil Jews are as justification of their hatred. It was once possible to separate Jew from Zionist, but Zionists have been doing their best to confuse that. The peace organization, Jewish Voices for Peace is now "antisemitic". Things need to change in Palestine/Israel or Jews are not going to be safe anywhere. And, many many more innocent Palestinian civilians will be massacred.

So, yes. Right of return is not only required by UN resolutions, it is the only solution that will bring some semblance of justice, and thus bring peace.

replies(1): >>sabarn+Rm
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5. sillys+cb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 02:15:24
>>rendal+N3
In the West Bank.

And the violence by Zionist settlers (with tacit approval of the Israeli state) in the W. Bank against the Palestinians has only gotten worse since the attack by the Hamas Palestinian resistance forces in Gaza.

replies(1): >>rendal+ZI
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6. frabbi+th[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 03:06:51
>>rendal+N3
You know there's a whole army of them in there now?
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7. sabarn+Rm[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 04:04:49
>>sillys+y6
So your first step is destruction of the Jewish state. Why would Israel do that. If that's your opening gabit it seems like war is the only option.
replies(3): >>bjourn+461 >>selimt+Ht1 >>sillys+9Rh
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8. rendal+ZI[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 08:19:03
>>sillys+cb
Ok, but in your long rant you imply there is a causal connection.
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9. bjourn+461[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 12:07:20
>>sabarn+Rm
Because South Africa did. And before that the US did. Eventually Israel will too, it's just a question of how much blood their extremists and racists will exact before they yield to justice.
replies(1): >>sabarn+OK1
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10. selimt+Ht1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 15:36:44
>>sabarn+Rm
A symbolic right of return for like 10% of the refugees to their overgrown villages isn’t destroying anything.
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11. sabarn+OK1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 17:34:00
>>bjourn+461
That's a very different claim the US and south Africa integrated. The us over a period of 100 years. There are some land reforms in sa but there are none in the US. Also Israel has a native Arab population that is already integrated.
replies(1): >>bjourn+r43
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12. bjourn+r43[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-10 03:44:31
>>sabarn+OK1
White Americans and white Boers were forced to treat colored people as their equals. Eventually Jewish Israelis will have to treat Palestinians as their equals too. It's exactly the same, except the level of extremism we see on the Israeli Jewish side is extremely high.
replies(1): >>sabarn+Nf3
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13. sabarn+Nf3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-10 06:10:16
>>bjourn+r43
No. There were multiple attempts to destroy Israel by force and the outcome is this. There are Israeli arabs with equal rights as Jews so this isn't the ethnic struggle it was in the US or sa. This is what do you do with a defeated enemy.
replies(1): >>bjourn+hY3
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14. bjourn+hY3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-10 15:48:42
>>sabarn+Nf3
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "destroying Israel"? In your previous comment you claimed that letting the victims of the 1948 ethnic cleansing return is the "destruction of the Jewish state". But that is something the international community has demanded since 1948. So is the international community trying to destroy Israel?

Suppose an American president had said "I've killed lots of blacks in my life and there's no problem with that". Or that the US largest newspaper published essays arguing that America would have failed if it ever got a black president. Or that congress enacted laws saying that the right to national self-determination in the US is unique to white people. If the US was like that would you say that blacks had equal rights?

https://web.archive.org/web/20210201162924/https://www.jpost...

https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-n...

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15. sillys+9Rh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-14 19:06:29
>>sabarn+Rm
> Why would Israel do that.

Boycott divestment and sanctions.

Although, in Israel's case, just losing the multiple billions of dollars it receives every year from the U.S., and loss of its uniquely favored trading status with the EU, might be enough, on its own, to motivate Israel to change course.

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