zlacker

> The videos of destruction and death in Gaza are far more horrific than corresponding videos in Israel

Maybe you haven't seen enough of what happened in 10/7 then. I would rather get hit by a bomb then tortured to death in the most horrific way possible.

>>proc0+(OP)
Would you rather get tortured to death horrifically or have your closest 200 relatives crushed to death in the rubble of everything they own? If we're comparing experiences, this might be a more typical choice.

>>proc0+(OP)
As of right now there are likely hundreds or thousands of Palestinians trapped under the rubble of their houses slowly suffocating or dying of dehydration. A process that takes days or weeks.

>>proc0+(OP)
Even when dug out at some point, following a long and painful agony people crushed under collapsed buildings almost always die. Particularly in Gaza where medical supplies are now non-existent.

Lots of innocents are dying; there is IMO absolutely no amount of reasoning that can justify it, under any circumstances. It's just wrong. It must stop, period.

>>proc0+(OP)
Can you show us some first-hand sources of what exactly did happen in 10/7? If not suitable for TikTok (though gore and violence upon Palestinians are readily visible), there must be available somewhere on PeerTube or blockchain platforms.

>>xster+yx
Here is a telegram channel. I know there are others. I can't really stomach it. https://t.me/OctoberSeventh

>>bjourn+ol
Nobody said that about the Germans during WW2, so I guess the disagreement is how bad the Hamas guys are.

And also we can't let them prove themselves to be as bad as the Nazis (if we start comparing numbers), it's about preventing it.

>>wazoox+4r
Yeah, that's pretty bad, but it lacks the terror and the brutality. Many people survive accidents of that magnitude and recover sooner or later. I cannot imagine being taken hostage, seeing your family members tortured and killed in front of you and dehumanized. I don't think anyone comes back from that.

>>proc0+u21
Nobody said what?

>>diggin+sb
That's pivoting from the experience of one person to comparing deaths in numbers. If we talk about the ratio we'll then need to include a bunch of other factors to explain it because it's not as simple as comparing experiences at the individual's level.

>>lazyas+b51
That the Allies shouldn't attack Germany because there would be too many civilian casualties. Same with Japan.

>>proc0+961
Hmm. I believe some people did, and specifically the incident that most comes to mind as analogous to what’s happening in Gaza is the bombing of Dresden and that of Hiroshima, which many many people said should not have been done.

>>proc0+341
You obviously have not seen the videos of incinerated children in Gaza.

>>proc0+961
Oh no. The lesson from the Second World War was that it must not repeated. It is not supposed to be used as a justification for committing war crimes against civilians.

>>wazoox+4r
> there is IMO absolutely no amount of reasoning that can justify it

Unfortunately, I don’t see any other way. But I would be very happy to know of any that will eradicate hamas, and let both sides’ civilians finally live in peace.

>>proc0+L51
No, it's not. Having one's family exterminated is also a personal experience. This has happened to actual living Palestinians. Perhaps it's difficult to believe, which is why I thought it was an important experience to include.

>>kaba0+qw3
That's why Netanyahu has been funding and encouraging Hamas for decades. Now he has a perfect excuse to massacre Palestinians, because he has to bomb Hamas. The alternative, impossible, unthinkable, would be treating Palestinians with dignity and humanity, allowing them to live and flourish in their homeland, and giving them no reason to support Hamas. Netanyahu knows exactly what he's doing and has been doing and what we're seeing right now is his goal. He wants Palestinians gone.

>>kaba0+qw3
You're taking it backward. You must not kill children. Everything else flows from this point. If your "solution" implies to kill children, it's not a solution, it's not defensible, it's not to be debated. Period. Else you're just as bad (or worse) as the other side. If you're not a fascistic fanatic (like the other side), then don't call for murder and crime (like the other side). Simple, uh?

In war there can be no justice. Now consider what is more just: not killing perpetrators, or killing innocents? Obviously, not killing is preferable. As Socrates said 2400 years ago, it's worse to commit injustice than to suffer it.

If you want an intelligent commentary on the current situation, please listen to Yuval Noah Harari on Sam Harris' podcast about this.

>>wazoox+M58
So what is your solution? Not doing anything is always the easy way, but it’s not a way out of most problems. Life is not a zero-sum game — in most situations there is no zero-cost decision.

>>kaba0+na8
There is a general human bias to do something, without considering if doing nothing could be better.

Israeli people must jail Netanyahu and his gang and negociate seriously for a two-states solution. There is no other way out. Military retaliation has exactly zero role to play here. It only creates more hatred and more Hamas militants to come.

https://www.slowboring.com/p/the-two-state-solution-is-still...

>>wazoox+4dd
cool, most reasonable people in Israel (or Israel sympathisers) would be happy to see Netanyahu in jail, and much more so after October 7.

however, jailing Netanyahu and some of his buddies (I’d for sure also put Smotrich and Ben-Gvir in jail, but there are so many more), wouldn’t stop the rocket fire from Gaza – so what is to be done about the rocket fire and infiltration attempts (and, unfortunately, we know now that "iron dome" + "high tech fencing" is not the answer).

So what a civilised country that values human life (especially of its own citizens) should do? What country in the world wouldn’t be running a military action against the rocket launching, hostage capturing, blood thirsty group financed by oil money?

>>gryzzl+Aue
> So what a civilised country that values human life (especially of its own citizens) should do?

Not bombing people (killing some of the hostages doing so). Make a serious offer for peace. Nothing serious has been done since Rabin's assassination. Both Barak and Olmert's tries were ham-handed, at a time when both Barak and Olmert were about to be ousted from power.

Can't you understand that violence won't solve anything at all? Retaliation won't resuscitate any of the dead. "Eye for an eye" will only make everyone blind in the end.

If Israel want to get back its lost moral up-hand, it has to offer peace, for real. Nothing else will do. If Israelis are serious about being better than the opposing side, than they have to do better than the opposing side, not worse.

>>wazoox+0Wf
you are delusional if you think you can offer "real peace" to people who behead and torture, and chant "death to you". this is not an option, and is not an option for anyone seriously discussing the subject. I asked you what to do about rocket launches, daily ones, that kill people. Peace process can’t occur out of nowhere, by just extending a hand.