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[parent] [thread] 33 comments
1. holmes+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-12-08 19:51:51
Another possible explanation for this skew is that TikTok and IG are primarily video platforms.

The videos of destruction and death in Gaza are far more horrific than corresponding videos in Israel, because the scale of what Israel is doing to Gaza is so much greater than what Gaza has done to Israel.

Another way of saying it is, it makes sense that someone who spends hours on apps optimized for empathy-based addiction would be more sympathetic to Gazans than someone who reads the newspaper or watches talking heads on TV news, since the latter portray the occupation as a two-sided tit for tat.

replies(2): >>wk_end+46 >>proc0+hi
2. wk_end+46[view] [source] 2023-12-08 20:18:03
>>holmes+(OP)
It's also the nature of the violence. It's generally acceptable to show shots of bombed-out buildings and the like, or even display injured or dead bodies. The footage we and Israel have from Hamas depicts first-hand murder, rape and torture - all things which are going to violate TOS.
replies(2): >>Kitten+38 >>rowans+aG
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3. Kitten+38[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-08 20:27:28
>>wk_end+46
I'm confused when you say that its acceptable to display injured or dead bodies, and yet its violating TOS to display murder or torture. The photo of a murder vs a photo of a bombed body is not something I understand to be distinctly different nor something that would be able to be detected by the algorithm.

[Small addition: I've actually seen videos of (alleged) hamas torture, particularly the torture and killing of a specific woman, from Oct 7, not taken down from TOS. I just was under the impression, because there are literally more Palestinian dead people, there will be more photos of dead Palestinians.]

[Edited to add, since I'm apparently posting too fast: no, I really do mean there were censored videos of that naked woman in the back of a hamas truck from Oct 7! And that one video of an Israeli woman who lives close enough to the bombing that she can hear it in the context that it gives her peace to know the bombing is happening!]

replies(1): >>wk_end+ec
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4. wk_end+ec[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-08 20:46:35
>>Kitten+38
Why are you talking about photos? The word "footage" refers to video, and I was replying to a post which said specifically (emphasis mine):

> Another possible explanation for this skew is that TikTok and IG are primarily *video* platforms [...] The *videos* of destruction and death in Gaza are far more horrific than corresponding *videos* in Israel

TikTok's "Community Guidelines" [0] read:

> We do not allow gory, gruesome, disturbing, or extremely violent content.

If a video depicting torture and killing wasn't taken down, either the poor moderators stuck viewing all this stuff just hadn't gotten to it yet or it was a failure in some way to enforce the TOS; not an indication that the TOS allows it.

[0] https://www.tiktok.com/community-guidelines/en/sensitive-mat...

5. proc0+hi[view] [source] 2023-12-08 21:12:45
>>holmes+(OP)
> The videos of destruction and death in Gaza are far more horrific than corresponding videos in Israel

Maybe you haven't seen enough of what happened in 10/7 then. I would rather get hit by a bomb then tortured to death in the most horrific way possible.

replies(4): >>diggin+Jt >>bjourn+FD >>wazoox+lJ >>xster+PP
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6. diggin+Jt[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-08 22:03:31
>>proc0+hi
Would you rather get tortured to death horrifically or have your closest 200 relatives crushed to death in the rubble of everything they own? If we're comparing experiences, this might be a more typical choice.
replies(1): >>proc0+2o1
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7. bjourn+FD[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-08 22:53:15
>>proc0+hi
As of right now there are likely hundreds or thousands of Palestinians trapped under the rubble of their houses slowly suffocating or dying of dehydration. A process that takes days or weeks.
replies(1): >>proc0+Lk1
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8. rowans+aG[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-08 23:06:38
>>wk_end+46
Rape and torture were not featured [1] in the recent propaganda movie Israel screened to select people in the West, so there's no reason to believe such footage exists.

1. https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1729487180630786219

replies(2): >>wk_end+uN >>petra+Yz1
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9. wazoox+lJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-08 23:22:36
>>proc0+hi
Even when dug out at some point, following a long and painful agony people crushed under collapsed buildings almost always die. Particularly in Gaza where medical supplies are now non-existent.

Lots of innocents are dying; there is IMO absolutely no amount of reasoning that can justify it, under any circumstances. It's just wrong. It must stop, period.

replies(2): >>proc0+km1 >>kaba0+HO3
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10. wk_end+uN[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-08 23:41:45
>>rowans+aG
That's possible. I'm aware that Hamas filmed much of what they did, and that they committed rape and torture in addition to murder; I'm not aware of the contents of much of the footage available because I'm, frankly, too squeamish to seek it out or watch it myself. Do you think this substantively detracts from my overall point, though?
replies(1): >>megous+nr1
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11. xster+PP[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-08 23:52:51
>>proc0+hi
Can you show us some first-hand sources of what exactly did happen in 10/7? If not suitable for TikTok (though gore and violence upon Palestinians are readily visible), there must be available somewhere on PeerTube or blockchain platforms.
replies(1): >>rendal+R61
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12. rendal+R61[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 02:00:09
>>xster+PP
Here is a telegram channel. I know there are others. I can't really stomach it. https://t.me/OctoberSeventh
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13. proc0+Lk1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 04:09:51
>>bjourn+FD
Nobody said that about the Germans during WW2, so I guess the disagreement is how bad the Hamas guys are.

And also we can't let them prove themselves to be as bad as the Nazis (if we start comparing numbers), it's about preventing it.

replies(1): >>lazyas+sn1
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14. proc0+km1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 04:26:57
>>wazoox+lJ
Yeah, that's pretty bad, but it lacks the terror and the brutality. Many people survive accidents of that magnitude and recover sooner or later. I cannot imagine being taken hostage, seeing your family members tortured and killed in front of you and dehumanized. I don't think anyone comes back from that.
replies(1): >>g8oz+ny1
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15. lazyas+sn1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 04:38:43
>>proc0+Lk1
Nobody said what?
replies(1): >>proc0+qo1
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16. proc0+2o1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 04:46:32
>>diggin+Jt
That's pivoting from the experience of one person to comparing deaths in numbers. If we talk about the ratio we'll then need to include a bunch of other factors to explain it because it's not as simple as comparing experiences at the individual's level.
replies(1): >>diggin+0m7
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17. proc0+qo1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 04:51:11
>>lazyas+sn1
That the Allies shouldn't attack Germany because there would be too many civilian casualties. Same with Japan.
replies(2): >>lazyas+9p1 >>zarzav+5G1
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18. lazyas+9p1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 05:00:04
>>proc0+qo1
Hmm. I believe some people did, and specifically the incident that most comes to mind as analogous to what’s happening in Gaza is the bombing of Dresden and that of Hiroshima, which many many people said should not have been done.
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19. megous+nr1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 05:25:53
>>wk_end+uN
What's available that I've seen falls into several categories:

- Uniformed Gazan fighters (not just Hamas/Al-Qasam, but also PIJ's Saraya Al-Quds, PFLP and some others) breaking the fence infrastructure (cams, remote controlled sentry gun towers, fence walls, fence itself, drone footage, preparations the night before - it shows that fighters of various groups commingled quite a bit). Fighters attacking Israel's military installations (border crossings, destroying some stationary military vehicles not manned at the time, etc.)

- Gazan fighters running around, or riding on motorcycles and pickup trucks, shooting at people and vehicles from small arms, and kidnapping people. This is the bulk of actual action in available footage.

- Footage of masses going from Gaza and looting settlements in Gaza envelope.

- Some grenade throwing into enclosed spaces with people inside.

- Almost no footage of fighters fighting with Israel army's armor, almost no footage of torture.

- No footage of child killings (there's some footage where only parents were killed and children left living). Small children were ~1% of killed victims on Oct 7, so lack of footage is not surprising.

- IDF killing a group of people that was apparently surrendering.

- Videos of IDF attack helicopters shooting at crowds of people and cars.

Footage of aftermath:

- Lots of footage of dead, burned bodies, either in cars or in houses. It's not clear who these people are a lot of the time, or who caused the fire, or how they died. (Israel overcounted its casualties by ~2 hundreds, due to misidentification of burned bodies.)

- At least 7 videos of corpse abuse by Israelis in the aftermath.

Oftentimes it's clear who's doing what, whether fighters or mob. Sometimes it's not.

Lot of "barbarity" of "Hamas" as portrayed in the media or even by some politicians, is made up/overblown (oven baked babies, 40 beheaded babies, children/people collected together tied and burned alive intentionally, ...). It seems to be designed to show that Hamas is way different in humanity than IDF, or whatnot, but it just ends up throwing doubt on other eyewitness descriptions of gruesome things that may be truthful.

There's an article in Haaretz about this problem: https://archive.ph/2023.12.03-221527/https://www.haaretz.co....

replies(1): >>kaba0+kO3
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20. g8oz+ny1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 06:48:44
>>proc0+km1
You obviously have not seen the videos of incinerated children in Gaza.
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21. petra+Yz1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 07:10:15
>>rowans+aG
I have heard of footage showing rape , but that it was left out, due to respect for the victims.

In any case there are other evidence for that to happen.

replies(1): >>rowans+e97
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22. zarzav+5G1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-09 08:14:46
>>proc0+qo1
Oh no. The lesson from the Second World War was that it must not repeated. It is not supposed to be used as a justification for committing war crimes against civilians.
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23. kaba0+kO3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-10 01:08:54
>>megous+nr1
I’m fairly sure there are much more video evidence of hamas evils posted by themselves. E.g. the beheading of migrant workers with shovels.
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24. kaba0+HO3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-10 01:12:45
>>wazoox+lJ
> there is IMO absolutely no amount of reasoning that can justify it

Unfortunately, I don’t see any other way. But I would be very happy to know of any that will eradicate hamas, and let both sides’ civilians finally live in peace.

replies(2): >>diggin+Ty7 >>wazoox+3o8
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25. rowans+e97[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-11 14:18:37
>>petra+Yz1
Given the massive propaganda value of these claims in terms of justifying the current assault on Gaza, it's hard to imagine they wouldn't have found a way to include them. Maybe there's some other evdence but it seems odd that people are asserting that "footage exists" based on nothing.
replies(1): >>petra+Wcl
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26. diggin+0m7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-11 15:49:01
>>proc0+2o1
No, it's not. Having one's family exterminated is also a personal experience. This has happened to actual living Palestinians. Perhaps it's difficult to believe, which is why I thought it was an important experience to include.
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27. diggin+Ty7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-11 17:17:15
>>kaba0+HO3
That's why Netanyahu has been funding and encouraging Hamas for decades. Now he has a perfect excuse to massacre Palestinians, because he has to bomb Hamas. The alternative, impossible, unthinkable, would be treating Palestinians with dignity and humanity, allowing them to live and flourish in their homeland, and giving them no reason to support Hamas. Netanyahu knows exactly what he's doing and has been doing and what we're seeing right now is his goal. He wants Palestinians gone.
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28. wazoox+3o8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-11 21:16:20
>>kaba0+HO3
You're taking it backward. You must not kill children. Everything else flows from this point. If your "solution" implies to kill children, it's not a solution, it's not defensible, it's not to be debated. Period. Else you're just as bad (or worse) as the other side. If you're not a fascistic fanatic (like the other side), then don't call for murder and crime (like the other side). Simple, uh?

In war there can be no justice. Now consider what is more just: not killing perpetrators, or killing innocents? Obviously, not killing is preferable. As Socrates said 2400 years ago, it's worse to commit injustice than to suffer it.

If you want an intelligent commentary on the current situation, please listen to Yuval Noah Harari on Sam Harris' podcast about this.

replies(1): >>kaba0+Es8
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29. kaba0+Es8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-11 21:38:57
>>wazoox+3o8
So what is your solution? Not doing anything is always the easy way, but it’s not a way out of most problems. Life is not a zero-sum game — in most situations there is no zero-cost decision.
replies(1): >>wazoox+lvd
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30. wazoox+lvd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-13 10:24:09
>>kaba0+Es8
There is a general human bias to do something, without considering if doing nothing could be better.

Israeli people must jail Netanyahu and his gang and negociate seriously for a two-states solution. There is no other way out. Military retaliation has exactly zero role to play here. It only creates more hatred and more Hamas militants to come.

https://www.slowboring.com/p/the-two-state-solution-is-still...

replies(1): >>gryzzl+RMe
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31. gryzzl+RMe[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-13 16:56:52
>>wazoox+lvd
cool, most reasonable people in Israel (or Israel sympathisers) would be happy to see Netanyahu in jail, and much more so after October 7.

however, jailing Netanyahu and some of his buddies (I’d for sure also put Smotrich and Ben-Gvir in jail, but there are so many more), wouldn’t stop the rocket fire from Gaza – so what is to be done about the rocket fire and infiltration attempts (and, unfortunately, we know now that "iron dome" + "high tech fencing" is not the answer).

So what a civilised country that values human life (especially of its own citizens) should do? What country in the world wouldn’t be running a military action against the rocket launching, hostage capturing, blood thirsty group financed by oil money?

replies(1): >>wazoox+heg
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32. wazoox+heg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-13 23:31:15
>>gryzzl+RMe
> So what a civilised country that values human life (especially of its own citizens) should do?

Not bombing people (killing some of the hostages doing so). Make a serious offer for peace. Nothing serious has been done since Rabin's assassination. Both Barak and Olmert's tries were ham-handed, at a time when both Barak and Olmert were about to be ousted from power.

Can't you understand that violence won't solve anything at all? Retaliation won't resuscitate any of the dead. "Eye for an eye" will only make everyone blind in the end.

If Israel want to get back its lost moral up-hand, it has to offer peace, for real. Nothing else will do. If Israelis are serious about being better than the opposing side, than they have to do better than the opposing side, not worse.

replies(1): >>gryzzl+sIo
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33. petra+Wcl[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-15 15:07:17
>>rowans+e97
It's not based on nothing. It was just an ethical decision not to show rape.

I hope that's enough proof for you:https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/06/middleeast/rape-sexual-vi...

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34. gryzzl+sIo[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-12-16 22:29:35
>>wazoox+heg
you are delusional if you think you can offer "real peace" to people who behead and torture, and chant "death to you". this is not an option, and is not an option for anyone seriously discussing the subject. I asked you what to do about rocket launches, daily ones, that kill people. Peace process can’t occur out of nowhere, by just extending a hand.
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