zlacker

[parent] [thread] 73 comments
1. laserl+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-11-22 07:14:19
With Sam coming back as CEO, hasn't OpenAI board proven that it has lost its function? Regardless of who is in the board, they won't be able to exercise one of the most fundamental of their rights, firing the CEO, because Sam has proven that he is unfireable. Now, Sam can do however he pleases, whether it is lying, not reporting, etc. To be clear, I don't claim that Sam did, or will, lie, or misbehave.
replies(11): >>random+I4 >>altpad+D5 >>kmlevi+67 >>low_te+Ki >>lysecr+9G >>strike+RN >>stetra+gd1 >>mkagen+CG1 >>baby+2L1 >>Quenti+B52 >>6gvONx+dl2
2. random+I4[view] [source] 2023-11-22 07:49:33
>>laserl+(OP)
No that hasn't at all been the case. The board acted like the most incompetent group of individuals who've even handed any responsibility. If they went through due process, notified their employees and investors, and put out a statement of why they're firing the CEO instead of doing it over a 15 min Google meet and then going completely silent, none of this outrage would have taken place.
replies(6): >>maxlin+sb >>squigz+pt >>braiam+VA1 >>OnAYDI+dB1 >>zeroha+E32 >>patcon+8M4
3. altpad+D5[view] [source] 2023-11-22 07:55:54
>>laserl+(OP)
Time will tell. Hopefully the new board will still be mostly independent of Sam/MSFT/VC influence. I really hope they continue as an org that tries its best to uphold their charter vs just being another startup.
4. kmlevi+67[view] [source] 2023-11-22 08:07:51
>>laserl+(OP)
This is a better deal for the board and a worse one for Sam than people realize. Sam and Greg and even Ilya are both off the board, D'Angelo gets to stay on despite his outrageous actions, and he gets veto power over who the new board members will be and a big say in who gets voted on to the board next.

Everybody's guard is going to be up around Sam from now on. He'll have much less leverage over this board than he did over the previous one (before the other three of nine quit). I think eventually he will prevail because he has the charm and social skills to win over the other independent members. But he will have to reign in his own behavior a lot in order to keep them on his side versus D'Angelo

replies(3): >>JSavag+eC >>jnwats+QY >>madeof+5r1
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5. maxlin+sb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 08:40:12
>>random+I4
Exactly. 3 CEO switches in a week is ridiculous
replies(2): >>abkola+uf >>caleb-+dW
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6. abkola+uf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 09:15:57
>>maxlin+sb
Four CEO changes in five days to be precise.

Sam -> Mira -> Emmet -> Sam

replies(5): >>Hendri+Li >>qup+161 >>low_te+Nv1 >>freedo+X22 >>abkola+UOb
7. low_te+Ki[view] [source] 2023-11-22 09:42:26
>>laserl+(OP)
Yes, but on the other hand, this whole thing has shown that OpenAI is not running smooth anymore, and probably never will again. You can't cut the head of the snake then attach it back later and expect it to move on slithering. Even if Sam stays, he won't be able to just do whatever he wants because in an organization as complex as OpenAI, there are thousands of unwritten rules and relationships and hidden processes that need to go smooth without the CEO's direct intervention (the CEO cannot be everywhere all the time). So, what this says to me (Sam being re-hired) is that the future OpenAI is now a watered-down, mere shadow of its former self.

I personally think it's weird if he really settles back in, especially given the other guys who resigned after the fact. There must be lots of other super exciting new things for him to do out there, and some pretty amazing leadership job offers from other companies. I'm not saying OpenAI will die out or anything, but surely it has shown a weak side.

replies(1): >>throwu+bo
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8. Hendri+Li[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 09:42:28
>>abkola+uf
That are three changes. Every arrow is one.
replies(2): >>physic+rk >>noneth+NN
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9. physic+rk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 09:58:59
>>Hendri+Li
Classic fence post error.
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10. throwu+bo[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 10:30:11
>>low_te+Ki
This couldn’t be more wrong. The big thing we learned from this episode is that Sam and Greg have the loyalty and respect of almost every single employee at OpenAI. Morale is high and they’re ready to fight for what they believe in. They didn’t “cut the head off” and the only snake here is D’Angelo, he tried to kill OpenAI and failed miserably. Now he appears to be desperately trying to hold on to some semblance of power by agreeing to Sam and Greg coming back instead of losing all control with the whole team joining Microsoft.
replies(2): >>alephn+Zs >>373947+Cw
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11. alephn+Zs[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 11:15:06
>>throwu+bo
> Morale is high and they’re ready to fight for what they believe in.

Money.

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12. squigz+pt[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 11:19:03
>>random+I4
> The board acted like the most incompetent group of individuals who've even handed any responsibility.

This is overly dramatic, but I suppose that's par for this round.

> none of this outrage would have taken place.

Yeah... I highly doubt this, personally. I'm sure the outrage would have been similar, as HN's current favorite CEO was fired.

replies(2): >>pas+DD >>SilasX+G42
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13. 373947+Cw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 11:47:24
>>throwu+bo
I don't think Ilya should get off so easily. Him not havinh a say in the formation of the new board speaks volumes about his role in things if you ask me. I hope people keep saying his name too so nobody forgets his place in this mess.
replies(1): >>FireBe+RB1
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14. JSavag+eC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 12:27:19
>>kmlevi+67
I'd be shocked if D'Angelo doesn't get kicked off. Even before this debacle his AI competitor app poe.com is an obvious conflict of interest with OpenAI.
replies(2): >>himara+471 >>muraka+2G2
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15. pas+DD[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 12:38:25
>>squigz+pt
HN sentiment is pretty ambivalent regarding Altman. yes, almost everyone agrees he's important, but a big group things he's basically landed gentry exploiting ML researchers, an other thinks he's a genius for getting MS pay for GPT costs, etc.
replies(1): >>hacker+sj1
16. lysecr+9G[view] [source] 2023-11-22 12:58:14
>>laserl+(OP)
No the board is just one instance. It doesn’t and shouldn’t have absolute power. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

There ist the board the investors the employees the senior management.

All other parties aligned against it and thus it couldn’t act. If only Sam would have rebelled. Or even just Sam and the investors (without the employees) nothing would have happened.

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17. noneth+NN[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 13:45:33
>>Hendri+Li
And technically 2 new CEOs
18. strike+RN[view] [source] 2023-11-22 13:46:03
>>laserl+(OP)
The board can still fire sam provided they get all the key stakeholders onboard with that firing. It made no sense to fire someone doing a good job at their role without any justification, that seems to have been the key issue. Ultimately, we all know this non profit thing is for show and will never work out.
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19. caleb-+dW[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 14:22:36
>>maxlin+sb
Maybe it came at the advice of Rishi Sunak when he and Altman met last week!
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20. jnwats+QY[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 14:33:48
>>kmlevi+67
This board's sole job is to pick the new board. The new board will have Sam.
replies(1): >>himara+i61
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21. qup+161[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 15:02:27
>>abkola+uf
The three hard problems: naming things and off-by-one errors
replies(1): >>Crespy+Tw1
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22. himara+i61[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 15:03:38
>>jnwats+QY
Conditioned on the outcome of the internal investigation, which seems up for grabs.
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23. himara+471[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 15:06:40
>>JSavag+eC
If he survived to this point, I doubt he will go any time soon.
replies(1): >>yeck+wi1
24. stetra+gd1[view] [source] 2023-11-22 15:34:10
>>laserl+(OP)
Imagine if the board of Apple fired Tim Cook with no warning right after he went on stage and announced their new developer platform updates for the year alongside record growth and sales, refused to elaborate as to the reasons or provide any useful communications to investors over several days, and replaced their first interim CEO with another interim CEO from a completely different kind of business in that same weekend.

If you don't think there would be a shareholder revolt against the board, for simply exercising their most fundamental right to fire the CEO, I think you're missing part the picture.

replies(3): >>hacker+Sj1 >>jacque+OP1 >>eksaps+FQ1
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25. yeck+wi1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 15:57:46
>>himara+471
Depends who gets onto the board. There are probably a lot of forces interested in ousting him now, so he'd need to do an amazing job vetting the new board members.

My guess is that he has less than a year, based on the my assumption that there will be constant pressure placed on the board to oust him.

replies(1): >>himara+Ij1
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26. hacker+sj1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 16:02:42
>>pas+DD
I think a page developed by YC thinks a lot more about him than that ;)
replies(1): >>komali+713
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27. himara+Ij1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 16:03:31
>>yeck+wi1
He has his network and technical credibility, so I wouldn't underestimate him. Board composition remains hard to predict now.
replies(1): >>WendyT+6S1
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28. hacker+Sj1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 16:04:13
>>stetra+gd1
It is prudent to recall that enhancing shareholder value and delivering record growth and sales are NOT the mission of the company or Board. But now it appears that it will have to be.
replies(3): >>ketzo+AA1 >>stetra+PH1 >>pauldd+CB2
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29. madeof+5r1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 16:36:46
>>kmlevi+67
(Sam Altman was never on the board to begin with)
replies(1): >>ketzo+LA1
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30. low_te+Nv1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 16:58:13
>>abkola+uf
Set semantic or List semantic?
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31. Crespy+Tw1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 17:02:45
>>qup+161
I always heard:

There are two hard problems: naming things, cache invalidation, and off-by-one errors.

replies(1): >>maxlin+aW3
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32. ketzo+AA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 17:20:52
>>hacker+Sj1
Yeah, but they also didn't elaborate in the slightest about how they were serving the charter with their actions.

If they were super-duper worried about how Sam was going to cause a global extinction event with AI, or even just that he was driving the company in too commercial of a direction, they should have said that to everyone!

The idea that they could fire the CEO with a super vague, one-paragraph statement, and then expect 800 employees who respect that CEO to just... be totally fine with that is absolutely fucking insane, regardless of the board's fiduciary responsibilities. They're board members, not gods.

replies(1): >>NanoYo+aY1
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33. ketzo+LA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 17:21:38
>>madeof+5r1
He was. OpenAI board as of last Thursday was Altman, Sutskever, Brockman, D'Angelo, Macaulay, Toner.
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34. braiam+VA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 17:22:33
>>random+I4
> If they went through due process, notified their employees and investors, and put out a statement of why they're firing the CEO

Did you read the bylaws? They have no responsibility to do any of that.

replies(3): >>ksd482+xB1 >>eksaps+7Q1 >>pauldd+U32
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35. OnAYDI+dB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 17:24:08
>>random+I4
Actually the board may not have acted in most professional way but in due process they kind of proved Sam Altman is unfireable for sure, even if they didn't intend to.

They did notify everyone. They did it after firing which is within their rights. They may also choose to stay silent if there is legitimate reason for it such as making the reasons known may harm the organization even more. This is speculation obviously.

In any case they didn't omit doing anything they need to and they didn't exercise a power they didn't have. The end result is that the board they choose will be impotent at the moment, for sure.

replies(6): >>xvecto+RH1 >>qudat+iN1 >>eksaps+sP1 >>jonas2+ZZ1 >>pauldd+l32 >>random+G33
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36. ksd482+xB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 17:25:33
>>braiam+VA1
That's not the point. Whether or not it was in the bylaws, this would have been the sensible thing to do.
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37. FireBe+RB1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 17:26:18
>>373947+Cw
There were comments the other day along the lines of "I wouldn't be surprised if someone came by Ilya's desk while he was deep in research and said 'sign this' and he just signed it and gave it back to them without even looking and didn't realize."

People will contort themselves into pretzels to invent rationalizations.

38. mkagen+CG1[view] [source] 2023-11-22 17:46:06
>>laserl+(OP)
None of the theories by HNers on day 1 of this drama was right - not a single one and it had 1 million comments. So, lets not guess anymore and just sit back.
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39. stetra+PH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 17:51:31
>>hacker+Sj1
Sure, there is a difference there. But the actions that erode confidence are the same.

You could tell the same story about a rising sports team replacing their star coach, or a military sacking a general the day after he marched through the streets to fanfare after winning a battle.

Even without the money involved, a sudden change in leadership with no explanation, followed only by increasing uncertainty and cloudy communication, is not going to go well for those who are backing you.

Even in the most altruistic version of OpenAI's goals I'm fairly sure they need employees and funding to pay those employees and do the research.

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40. xvecto+RH1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 17:51:36
>>OnAYDI+dB1
Their communication was completely insufficient. There is no possible world on which the board could be considered "competent" or "professional."
41. baby+2L1[view] [source] 2023-11-22 18:03:36
>>laserl+(OP)
How did you get there? The board did fire him, they exercised their right.
replies(1): >>eksaps+wW1
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42. qudat+iN1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 18:13:22
>>OnAYDI+dB1
> proved Sam Altman is unfireable [without explaining why to its employees].
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43. eksaps+sP1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 18:21:50
>>OnAYDI+dB1
Getting your point, although the fact that something is within your rights, may or may not mean certainly that it's also a proper thing to do ... ?

Like, nobody is going to arrest you for spitting on the street especially if you're an old grandpa. Nobody is going to arrest you for saying nasty things about somebody's mom.

You get my point, to some boundary both are kinda within somebody's rights, although can be suable or can be reported for misbehaving. But that's the keypoint, misbehavior.

Just because something is within your rights doesn't mean you're not misbehaving or not acting in an immature way.

To be clear, Im not denying or agreeing that the board of directors acted in an immature way. I'm just arguing against the claim that was made within your text that just because someone is acting within their rights that it's also a "right" thing to do necessary, while that is not the case always.

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44. jacque+OP1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 18:23:38
>>stetra+gd1
You forgot: and offered the company for a bag of peanuts to Microsoft.
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45. eksaps+7Q1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 18:25:26
>>braiam+VA1
you don't have responsibility for washing yourself before going to a mass transport vehicle full of people. it's within your rights not to do that and be the smelliest person in the bus.

does it mean it's right or professional?

getting your point, but i hope you get the point i make as well, that just because you have no responsibility for something doesn't mean you're right or not unethical for doing or not doing that thing. so i feel like you're losing the point a little.

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46. eksaps+FQ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 18:27:47
>>stetra+gd1
no but the people like the developers, clients, government etc. have also the right to exercise their revolt against decisions they don't like as well. don't you think?

like, you get me, the board of directors is not the only actual power within a company, and that was proven by the whole scandal of Sam being discarded/fired that was made by the developers themselves. they also have the right to exercise their right to just not work at this company without the leader they may had liked.

replies(1): >>stetra+f82
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47. WendyT+6S1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 18:33:02
>>himara+Ij1
What surprises me is how much regard the valley has for this guy. Doesn’t Quora suck terribly? I’m for sure its target demographic and I cannot for the life of me pull value from it. I have tried!
replies(2): >>himara+ZU1 >>JSavag+TH3
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48. himara+ZU1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 18:43:54
>>WendyT+6S1
His claim to fame comes from scaling FB. Quora shows he has questionable product nous, but nobody questions his technical chops.
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49. eksaps+wW1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 18:50:00
>>baby+2L1
because people like the developers within the company did not like that decision and its also within their right to disagree with the board's decision and not to want to work under a different leadership. They're not slaves, they're employees who rented their time for a specific purpose under a specific leader.

As it's within the board's rights to hire or fire people like Sam or the developers.

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50. NanoYo+aY1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 18:57:06
>>ketzo+AA1
They don't have to elaborate. As many have pointed out, most people have been given advice to not say anything at all when SHTF. If they did say something there would still be drama. It's best to keep these details internal.

I still believe in the theory that Altman was going hard after profits. Both McCauley and Toner are focused on the altruistic aspects of AGI and safety. Altman shouldn't be at OpenAI and neither should D’Angelo.

replies(2): >>ketzo+B42 >>stetra+x72
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51. jonas2+ZZ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 19:06:01
>>OnAYDI+dB1
Firing Sam was within the board's rights. And 90% of the employees threatening to leave was within their rights.

All this proved is that you can't take a major action that is deeply unpopular with employees, without consulting them, and expect to still have a functioning organization. This should be obvious, but it apparently never crossed the board's mind.

replies(2): >>freedo+G22 >>m3kw9+FS2
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52. freedo+G22[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 19:18:44
>>jonas2+ZZ1
A lot of these high-up tech leaders seem to forget this regularly. They sit on their thrones and dictate wild swings, and are used to having people obey. They get all the praise and adulation when things go well, and when things don't go well they golden parachute into some other organization who hires based on resume titles rather than leadership and technical ability. It doesn't surprise me at all that they were caught off guard by this.
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53. freedo+X22[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 19:20:06
>>abkola+uf
Thank you for not editing this away. Easy mistake to make, and gave us a good laugh (hopefully laughing with you. Everyone who's ever programmed has made the same error).
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54. pauldd+l32[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 19:22:23
>>OnAYDI+dB1
> They may also choose to stay silent

They may choose to, and they did choose to.

But it was an incompitant choice. (Obviously.)

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55. zeroha+E32[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 19:23:52
>>random+I4
> none of this outrage would have taken place.

most certainly would have still taken place; no one cares about how it was done; what they care about it being able to make $$; and it was clearly going to not be as heavily prioritized without Altman (which is why MSFT embraced him and his engineers almost immediately).

> notified their employees and investors they did notify their employees; they have fiduciary duty to investors as a nonprofit.

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56. pauldd+U32[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 19:24:50
>>braiam+VA1

  Here lies the body of William Jay,
  Who died maintaining his right of way –
  He was right, dead right, as he sped along,
  But he's just as dead as if he were wrong.

    - Dale Carnegie
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57. ketzo+B42[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 19:27:50
>>NanoYo+aY1
Okay, keep silent to save your own ass, fine

But why would anyone expect 800 people to risk their livelihoods and work without a little serious justification? This was an inevitable reaction.

replies(1): >>muraka+EF2
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58. SilasX+G42[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 19:28:24
>>squigz+pt
Agreed. It's naive to think that an decision this unpopular somehow wouldn't have resulted in dissent and fracturing if only they had given it a better explanation and dotted more i's.

Imagine arguing this in another context: "Man, if only the Supreme Court had clearly articulated its reasoning in overturning Roe v Wade, there wouldn't have been all this outrage over it."

(I'm happy to accept that there's plenty of room for avoiding some of the damage, like the torrents of observers thinking "these board members clearly don't know what they're doing".)

59. Quenti+B52[view] [source] 2023-11-22 19:33:11
>>laserl+(OP)
OpenAI workers has shown their plain support to their CEO by threatening to follow him wherever he wants, I personaly think their collective judgement on him is worth more than any rumors
replies(1): >>BOOSTE+714
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60. stetra+x72[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 19:42:14
>>NanoYo+aY1
> They don't have to elaborate.

Sure, they don't have to. How did that work out?

Four CEOs in five days, their largest partner stepping in to try to stop the chaos, and almost the entirety of their employees threatening to leave for guaranteed jobs at that partner if the board didn't step down.

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61. stetra+f82[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 19:45:23
>>eksaps+FQ1
Right. I really should have said employees and investors. Even if OpenAI somehow had no regard for its investors, they still need their employees to accomplish their mission. And funding to pay those employees.

The board seemed to have the confidence of none of the groups they needed confidence from.

62. 6gvONx+dl2[view] [source] 2023-11-22 20:53:02
>>laserl+(OP)
Looks like all the naysayers from the original “were making a for-profit but it won’t change us” post ended up correct: >>19359928
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63. pauldd+CB2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 22:17:15
>>hacker+Sj1
> enhancing shareholder value and delivering record growth and sales are NOT the mission of the company

Developer platform updates seem to be inline.

And in any case, the board also failed to specify how their action furthered the mission of the company.

From all appearances, it appeared to damage the mission of the company. (If for no other reason that it dissolve the company and gave everything to MSFT.)

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64. muraka+EF2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 22:40:33
>>ketzo+B42
I think it's important to keep in mind that BOTH Altman and the board maneuvered to threaten to destroy OpenAI.

If Altman was silent and/or said something like "people take some time off for Thanksgiving, in a week calmer minds will prevail" while negotiating behind the scenes, OpenAI would look a lot less dire in the last few days. Instead he launched a public pressure campaign, likely pressured Mira, got Satya to make some fake commitments, got Greg Bockman's wife to emotionally pressure Ilya, etc.

Masterful chess, clearly. But playing people like pieces nonetheless.

replies(1): >>pauldd+Ii5
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65. muraka+2G2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 22:42:52
>>JSavag+eC
I think it was only a competitor app after GPTs came out. A conspiracy theorist might say that Altman wanted to get him off the board and engineered GPTs as a pretext first, in the same way that he used some random paper coauthored by Toner that nobody read to kick Toner out.
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66. m3kw9+FS2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-22 23:56:49
>>jonas2+ZZ1
Not sure how much of the employees leaving have to do with negotiating Sam back, must be a big factor but not all, during the table talk Emmett, Angelo and Ilya must have decided that it wasn’t a good firing and a mistake in retrospect and it is to fix it.
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67. komali+713[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-23 00:39:22
>>hacker+sj1
Just putting my hand up as one of the dudes that happened to enter my email on a yc forum (not "page") but really doesn't like the guy lol.

I also have a Twitter account. Guess my opinion on the current or former Twitter CEOs?

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68. random+G33[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-23 00:55:48
>>OnAYDI+dB1
If you read my comment again, I'm talking about their competence, not their rights. Those are two entirely different things.
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69. JSavag+TH3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-23 07:03:15
>>WendyT+6S1
Quora is an embarrassment and died years ago when marketers took it over
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70. maxlin+aW3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-23 09:42:06
>>Crespy+Tw1
1 hard problems.

naming things, cache invalidation, off-by one errors, and overflows.

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71. BOOSTE+714[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-23 10:39:48
>>Quenti+B52
Money indeed is worth more, also the only thing that is easy to measure during crisis.
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72. patcon+8M4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-23 16:10:42
>>random+I4
> The board acted like the most incompetent group of individuals who've eve[r been] handed any responsibility.

This whole conversation has been full of appeals to authority. Just because us tech people don't know some of these names and their accomplishments, we talk about them being "weak" members. The more I learn, the more I think this board was full of smart ppl who didn't play business politics well (and that's ok by me, as business politics isn't supposed to be something they have to deal with).

Their lack of entanglements makes them stronger members, in my perspective. Their miscalculation was in how broken the system is in which they were undermined. And you and I are part of that brokenness even in how we talk about it here

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73. pauldd+Ii5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-23 19:12:51
>>muraka+EF2
Why couldn't those people have acted on their own judgement?
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74. abkola+UOb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-26 13:17:46
>>abkola+uf
Edit: Making no excuses, this one is embarrassing.
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