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1. tarrud+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-11-20 14:33:34
The whole thing starts to look like a coup orchestrated by Microsoft
replies(5): >>raphma+p2 >>Jensso+R3 >>jhh+54 >>hospit+u7 >>beowul+ME
2. raphma+p2[view] [source] 2023-11-20 14:42:32
>>tarrud+(OP)
Somehow reminds me of Nokia...

>>7645482

frik on April 25, 2014:

> The Nokia fate will be remembered as hostile takeover. Everything worked out in the favor of Microsoft in the end. Though Windows Phone/Tablet have low market share, a lot lower than expected.

> * Stephen Elop the former Microsoft employee (head of the Business Division) and later Nokia CEO with his infamous "Burning Platform" memo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Elop#CEO_of_Nokia

> * Some former Nokia employees called it "Elop = hostile takeover of a company for a minimum price through CEO infiltration": https://gizmodo.com/how-nokia-employees-are-reacting-to-the-...

For the record: I don't actually believe that there is an evil Microsoft master plan. I just find it sad that Microsoft takes over cool stuff and inevitably turns it into Microsoft™ stuff or abandons it.

replies(2): >>spiral+c9 >>davisr+LB
3. Jensso+R3[view] [source] 2023-11-20 14:49:57
>>tarrud+(OP)
Yeah, this was a fight between the non-profit and the for-profit branches of OpenAI, and the for-profit won. So now the non-profit OpenAI is essentially dead, the takeover is complete.
replies(3): >>mcv+09 >>unytti+1a >>kmlevi+Ku
4. jhh+54[view] [source] 2023-11-20 14:51:06
>>tarrud+(OP)
Reasoning based on cui bono is a hallmark of conspiracy theories.
replies(4): >>pagane+D6 >>questi+F7 >>switch+X7 >>freedo+U8
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5. pagane+D6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 15:03:00
>>jhh+54
The alternative is "these guys don't know what they're doing, even if tens of billions of dollars are at stake".

Which is to say, what's your alternative for a better explanation? (other than the "cui bono?" one, that is).

replies(2): >>flerch+79 >>airstr+Wa
6. hospit+u7[view] [source] 2023-11-20 15:08:18
>>tarrud+(OP)
A few weeks ago my 4yr old Minecraft gamer was playing pretend and said "I'm fighting the biggest boss. THE MICROSOFT BOSS!"

Yeah M$ hasnt had a good reputation. I finally left Windows this year because I'm afraid of them after Win11.

2023/4 will be the year of the Linux Desktop in retrospect. (or at least my family's religion deemed it)

replies(5): >>mcv+oa >>CyanLi+3c >>kulmal+Cn >>efdee+6r >>JakeAl+nF
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7. questi+F7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 15:09:29
>>jhh+54
Haha yes, we should never look at the incentives behind actions. We all know human decision making is stochastic right?
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8. switch+X7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 15:11:16
>>jhh+54
Haha yeah the world is just run by silly fools who make silly mistakes (oops, just drafted a law limited your right to protest - oopsie!) and just random/lucky investments.
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9. freedo+U8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 15:17:44
>>jhh+54
Possibility is also a hallmark of conspiracy theories, yet we don't reject theories for being possible.

This is an argumentum ad odium fallacy

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10. mcv+09[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 15:18:31
>>Jensso+R3
Is it? Who are the non-profit and for-profit sides? Sutskever initially got blames for ousting Altman, but now seemed to want him back. Is he changing sides only because he realises how many employees support Altman? Or were he and Altman always on the same side? And in that case, who is on the other side?
replies(1): >>Jensso+Ac
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11. flerch+79[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 15:19:21
>>pagane+D6
Your alternative explanation along with giant egos is pretty plausible.
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12. spiral+c9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 15:19:49
>>raphma+p2
In many ways the analysis by Elop was right, Nokia was in trouble. However his solution wasn't the right one, and Nokia paid for it.
replies(1): >>lxgr+9d
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13. unytti+1a[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 15:25:42
>>Jensso+R3
The nonprofit side of the venture actually was in worse shape before, because it was completely overwhelmed by for-profit operations. A better way to view this is the nonprofit side rebelled, has a much smaller footprint than the for-profit venture, and we're about to see if during the ascendency of the for-profit activities the nonprofit side retained enough rights to continue to be relevant in the AI conversation.

As for employees end masse acting publicly disloyal to their employer, usually not a good career move.

replies(3): >>smegge+nb >>nordsi+4t >>dumbo-+fD
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14. mcv+oa[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 15:28:42
>>hospit+u7
I also finally left Windows behind. Tired of their shenanigans, tired of them trying to force me into their Microsoft account system (both for Windows and Minecraft).

The idea that Microsoft is going to control OpenAI does not exactly fill me with confidence.

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15. airstr+Wa[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 15:31:53
>>pagane+D6
> these guys don't know what they're doing, even if tens of billions of dollars are at stake

also known as "never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence", which to my gut sounds at least as likely as a cui bono explanation tbh (which is not to be seen as an endorsement of the view that cui bono = conspiracy...)

replies(1): >>financ+vm
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16. smegge+nb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 15:34:58
>>unytti+1a
Exsept to many it looks like the board went insane and and started firing on themselves. Anyone fleeing that isnt going to be looked on poorly.
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17. CyanLi+3c[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 15:40:29
>>hospit+u7
I was wondering how many lines I'd have to scroll down in the comments to see a "M$" reference here on HackerNews.

They're a $2+ trillion dollar company. They're doing something right.

replies(3): >>davone+Mf >>UncleO+6n >>gosub1+2H
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18. Jensso+Ac[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 15:43:30
>>mcv+09
> Who are the non-profit and for-profit sides?

The only part left of the non-profit was the board, all the employees and operations are in the for-profit entity. Since employees now demand the board should resign there will be nothing left of the non-profit after this. Puppets that are aligned with for-profit interests will be installed instead and the for-profit can act like a regular for-profit without being tied to the old ideals.

replies(1): >>mcv+3g
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19. lxgr+9d[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 15:47:29
>>spiral+c9
Seeing that a company is in trouble is not really the highest bar for a CEO candidate...
replies(1): >>alephn+xA
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20. davone+Mf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 16:02:52
>>CyanLi+3c
If you shove a bunch of $100 dollar bills on a thorn tree, it doesn't make it any less dangerous or change it's fundamental nature.
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21. mcv+3g[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 16:04:11
>>Jensso+Ac
Didn't they receive their original funding as donations? All those donations will now turn out to have been made to a for-profit entity.
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22. financ+vm[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 16:38:47
>>airstr+Wa
Everyone always forgets there's two parts to Hanlon's razor:

> Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity (1), but don't rule out malice. (2)

replies(1): >>freedo+071
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23. UncleO+6n[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 16:41:43
>>CyanLi+3c
Now do oil companies and big pharma.
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24. kulmal+Cn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 16:44:05
>>hospit+u7
Why did it take Windows 11? (Haven't personally used it, but having helped my dad and my coworkers try to navigate it... it does seem pretty terrible. I thought Windows 10 was supposed to fold on to just... 'Windows' with rolling updates?)

I've been using Linux for a while. Since 2010 I sort of actively try to avoid using anything else. (On desktops/laptops.)

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25. efdee+6r[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 16:58:26
>>hospit+u7
You'd do yourself a favor by not referring to them as "M$". It taints your entire message, true or not.
replies(3): >>avidph+it >>the_gi+Sw >>callal+jJ
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26. nordsi+4t[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:05:55
>>unytti+1a
> As for employees end masse acting publicly disloyal to their employer, usually not a good career move.

Wut?

This is software, not law. The industry is notorious for people jumping ship every couple of years.

replies(1): >>hef198+Rw
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27. avidph+it[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:06:42
>>efdee+6r
OP should start by not letting their 4yo play video games.
replies(1): >>hospit+v01
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28. kmlevi+Ku[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:11:41
>>Jensso+R3
This view is dated now, because now even Ilya Setskever, The head research scientist who instigated the firing in the first place, now regrets his actions and wants things back to normal! So it really looks like this comes down to the whims of a couple board members now. they don’t seem to have any true believers on their side anymore. It’s just them and almost nobody else.
replies(2): >>ruszki+1y >>scythe+vB
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29. hef198+Rw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:18:08
>>nordsi+4t
Still, doing so publicly still isn't a good idea, IMHO.
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30. the_gi+Sw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:18:10
>>efdee+6r
Please, no cancel-culture.
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31. ruszki+1y[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:21:31
>>kmlevi+Ku
Do we know that Ilya even wanted the firing? AFAIK we “know” this only from Altman, who is definitely not a credible source of such information.
replies(1): >>denton+uB
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32. alephn+xA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:28:51
>>lxgr+9d
It was for a company as top heavy and dysfunctional at Nokia. This has been well documented by Nokia members at the time. I had a post on HN digging specifically into this. Read "Transforming Nokia" sometime. It's a pretty decent overview of Nokia during that time period
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33. denton+uB[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:32:03
>>ruszki+1y
Ilya, in his tweet, says he regrets the firing decision. You can't regret an act that you never committed.
replies(1): >>ruszki+LH
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34. scythe+vB[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:32:05
>>kmlevi+Ku
There is no solid evidence that Setskever instigated the firing beyond speculation by friends who suggest that he had disagreements with Altman. It could just as well have been any of the other board members, or even a simple case of groupthink (the Asch conformity effect) run amok.

Furthermore, it's consistent with all available information that they would prefer to continue without Sam, but they would rather have Sam than lose the company, and now that Microsoft has put its foot down, they'd rather settle.

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35. davisr+LB[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:32:55
>>raphma+p2
> I don't actually believe that there is an evil Microsoft master plan.

What planet are you living on?

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36. dumbo-+fD[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:38:39
>>unytti+1a
Disloyalty to the board due to overwhelming loyalty to the CEO isn't really an issue. I've interviewed for tech positions where a chat with the CEO is part of the interview process, I've never chatted with the board.
37. beowul+ME[view] [source] 2023-11-20 17:44:15
>>tarrud+(OP)
It does feel like Microsoft wanted this to happen, doesn’t it? Like the systems for this were already in place. So fascinating, and a little scary.
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38. JakeAl+nF[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:46:16
>>hospit+u7
Right there with you. In the process of extracting myself from all things MS. Even when they do something right they have to keep changing it until it's crap.
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39. gosub1+2H[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:52:17
>>CyanLi+3c
they violated free market principles (years ago) that left their users captive. Not home users, every business in the country for the past 30+ years. They are profiting from doing many things wrong, anti-competitive, and illegal. In some alternative universe, there's an earth where you can switch just the OS (and keep all your apps, data, and functionality) and MSFT went bankrupt. Another far-away-galaxy has an earth where MSFT's board got decade prison sentences for breaking antitrust law, another where MSFT paid each victim of spyware $1000 in damages due to faulty product design. We don't live in those realities where bad guys pay.
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40. ruszki+LH[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:54:34
>>denton+uB
The board committed it.
replies(1): >>kmlevi+Rd1
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41. callal+jJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 17:59:16
>>efdee+6r
I’m baffled by this. What is offensive about pointing out that an international for-profit seeks more profit?
replies(1): >>efdee+TK
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42. efdee+TK[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:04:43
>>callal+jJ
Nothing at all. But writing "Microsoft" as "Micro$oft" is just childish and it taints your otherwise potentially valid message. Do you also refer to Windows as "Winblows" maybe?
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43. hospit+v01[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 18:59:30
>>avidph+it
My kid went from disinterested in the letters we taught him, to fascinated when he realized he could use them to get special blocks.

Minecraft teaches phonics. Anyway, my 4 year old can read books. He doesnt even practice the homework in his preschool because he just reads the words that everyone else sounds out.

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44. freedo+071[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 19:24:38
>>financ+vm
I don't actually think (2) is part of the razor[1]. If it is, then it doesn't make sense because (1) is an absolute (i.e. "never") which is always evaluated boolean "true", therefore statement (2) is never actually executed and is dead code.

Nevertheless I agree with you and think (2) is wise to always keep in mind. I love Hanlon's Razor but people definitely should take it literally as written and/or as law.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

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45. kmlevi+Rd1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-20 19:51:11
>>ruszki+LH
Ilya was/is on the board, and was present when the firing occurred. He had no obligation to be at that snap meeting if he wasn’t going along with it.

Besides, considering it was four against two, they would’ve needed him for the decisive vote anyway.

I’m not sure why you wouldn’t trust Sam Altman‘s account of what Ilya did and didn’t do considering Ilya himself is siding with Sam now.

replies(1): >>ruszki+013
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46. ruszki+013[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-21 07:15:58
>>kmlevi+Rd1
Probably yeah.

Altman showed nothing why he would or wouldn’t lie. If he is really wanted to do things against the board, or the mission, or whatever, then it is in his interest to lie. However, we still don’t know anything, so we can’t exclude any possibilities. That means that interested parties’ statements’ value is almost nothing. It’s easy to lie in muddy waters.

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