zlacker

[parent] [thread] 32 comments
1. MereIn+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-11-02 12:43:40
> The worst thing a company can do is try to sell you more soap.

A company can bar the exits, letting you burn to death [0]. A company can send private militias to force you to work [1] (or because you were sent the wrong set of MtG cards [2]). A company can improperly store pesticide, until the resulting explosion kills thousands [3]. A company can own every house and store in a town, managing your expenses to ensure you can't leave [4]. A company can bribe judges to provide them with child labor [5].

Some of these were illegal at the time they were done. Some of these were made illegal as a result of these events. All of them are within the nature of companies, optimizing in pursuit of profit regardless of the human cost. That nature is useful for improving lives, but must be carefully controlled to prevent it from trampling us all.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkerton_(detective_agency)

[2] https://gizmodo.com/magic-the-gathering-leaks-wizards-wotc-p...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

replies(3): >>joseph+p1 >>JAlexo+mD >>ActorN+t01
2. joseph+p1[view] [source] 2023-11-02 12:52:26
>>MereIn+(OP)
Yep. And when I’m unhappy with my government, I can vote them out or, if I want to, get politically active.

I can’t vote out Google. Their customers are advertisers, not me. And I don’t know which apps on my phone send my information to Facebook or what they do with it.

replies(5): >>konsch+x4 >>pb7+6h >>JAlexo+HE >>savana+h41 >>umanwi+z71
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3. konsch+x4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 13:09:32
>>joseph+p1
Then don't use google, duh.
replies(1): >>Firmwa+57
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4. Firmwa+57[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 13:23:20
>>konsch+x4
Google ad-tech still tracks you as you browse non-google websites.
replies(1): >>JAlexo+6G
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5. pb7+6h[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 14:13:25
>>joseph+p1
It’s infinitely easier to avoid the companies you don’t like than it is to vote out any part of government. You have near zero power to remove someone you don’t like because your vote is worth next to nothing. However, you have full power to avoid the products and services of a company.
replies(4): >>__Matr+dn >>devsda+vo >>xigoi+5p >>_Alger+Z71
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6. __Matr+dn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 14:44:08
>>pb7+6h
I mean, if you know how. I once ran across a data product which was Bluetooth mac addresses as they moved through bust streets. Sure it's easy to turn off Bluetooth so that you don't show up in the data, but most people had no idea the collection was happening.
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7. devsda+vo[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 14:49:35
>>pb7+6h
> It’s infinitely easier to avoid the companies you don’t like than it is to vote out any part of government.

If you can avoid a company, the fact that there is an acceptable alternative itself says that the market is not monopolized and so there is less chance of abuse.

In the markets where abuse is possible there are often monopolies, or there is illusion of choice like a (colluding or copycatting)duopoly or one where all the "competing" brands being owned by the same parent conglomerate etc.

It is very difficult to participate in the modern economy/world while avoiding certain companies. It might be possible but there are both social and economical costs involved that majority cannot afford.

replies(1): >>Capric+Cr
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8. xigoi+5p[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 14:52:09
>>pb7+6h
You can avoid the services of Google and Facebook, but you can't avoid their tracking. Every other website you browse will let them know and your family and friends will happily tell them about you.
replies(1): >>vasdae+Rs
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9. Capric+Cr[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 15:01:25
>>devsda+vo
> If you can avoid a company, the fact that there is an acceptable alternative itself says that the market is not monopolized and so there is less chance of abuse

Avoiding a company doesn't necessarily mean there's an acceptable alternative. I could use no social media and my life wouldn't be much worse or burdensome.

There's very little I can do to prevent the government from doing what it's doing by myself.

replies(1): >>devsda+UE
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10. vasdae+Rs[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 15:06:11
>>xigoi+5p
Of course I can, I can use ublock or pihole or whatever.
replies(1): >>xigoi+Yt
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11. xigoi+Yt[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 15:09:51
>>vasdae+Rs
That doesn't help with the friends and family part. Not to mention that privacy violations should be opt-in, not opt-out.
12. JAlexo+mD[view] [source] 2023-11-02 15:46:04
>>MereIn+(OP)
I understand that your culture may not be context heavy, but please remember that this is probably related to the context of advertising companies.

I doubt that this relates to the online advertising space.

Disregarding the personal data and other tracking, banning all targeted advertising is... not ideal. I genuinely would prefer to have ads that are relevant, than ads for table casters.

One thing that we should also be aware, is that ads aren't going away. They're going to be more obnoxious as a result of this decision.

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13. JAlexo+HE[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 15:50:32
>>joseph+p1
I would like to vote out my homophobic government, but I can't.

I can't avoid not paying taxes to fund the catholic church in my country, that uses that money to lobby homophobic laws... I can block Google and not use them.

This is not a simple "just vote them out", unless you're part of the privileged majority that can affect the policy.

replies(1): >>taway1+7B1
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14. devsda+UE[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 15:51:13
>>Capric+Cr
Sure one can refuse to participate in the "market" altogether but like I said, it is a luxury that not everyone can afford to have due to various personal/social/economic reasons.
replies(1): >>Capric+qTa
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15. JAlexo+6G[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 15:55:01
>>Firmwa+57
They're not your websites. If you wish, we should make it way more clear about it.

But telling a small newspaper to stop using ads for revenue, when you aren't willing to financially support them is... hypocritical.

In short - just like a lot of "this ids good for you" laws, this will definitely impact smaller companies way more than you think.

replies(1): >>Firmwa+Lg1
16. ActorN+t01[view] [source] 2023-11-02 17:02:28
>>MereIn+(OP)
Try again, but keep things relevant within the past 10 years, and applicable to majority of the population.
replies(2): >>henry2+p21 >>MereIn+Bt1
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17. henry2+p21[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:08:51
>>ActorN+t01
As corporations get bigger. the issues described get more prevalent. South Korea is going through a birth collapse mostly because their corporations's shaping of civil life. We're going through a huge opioid crisis just because of our corporations.

Systemic > Isolated instances but also harder to point out.

replies(1): >>aegypt+Ke1
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18. savana+h41[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:15:32
>>joseph+p1
It's much easier to change what company you do business with than what government you're under. I can't believe you're managing to turn this simple fact on its head and imply the exact opposite.
replies(3): >>lapeti+861 >>_Alger+871 >>abadpo+Ej1
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19. lapeti+861[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:22:32
>>savana+h41
How can I stop doing business with Experian, Transunion, and Equifax?
replies(1): >>idopms+2h1
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20. _Alger+871[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:26:01
>>savana+h41
That's not true. Governments most likely have your data within the management of private companies right at this moment (especially Microsoft through Azure, Amazon through AWS, or as a student Google, due to Chromebooks). Changing the private companies that have your data, in some cases has changing your government as a prerequisite.
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21. umanwi+z71[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:27:46
>>joseph+p1
> when I’m unhappy with my government, I can vote them out

No, you actually can’t, in a very real and practical sense.

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22. _Alger+Z71[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:29:28
>>pb7+6h
Bullshit. My government has my data stored on Azure or AWS or Google Cloud. If I would have children their data would be be collected by their Chromebooks through the public school they go to. You wont find a utility provider that doesn't store your private data in some private company's systems. Same for employers.
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23. aegypt+Ke1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 17:54:38
>>henry2+p21
Still quite the reach. An inverse correlation between income and fertility is observable across the entire developed world and across every form of economic organization present in developed/developing countries over the past century with zero exceptions.
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24. Firmwa+Lg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:03:06
>>JAlexo+6G
>But telling a small newspaper to stop using ads for revenue, when you aren't willing to financially support them is... hypocritical.

How do you know I am not willing to pay?

OK, I'll be the millionth commenter to repeat this viewpoint for the millionth time on HN: nobody has issues with online ads to support their favorite newspaper or creator, people have an issue with tracking and targeting ads.

We've had ad supported websites, forums and blogs since the 90's, but those were generic and harmless, and wouldn't track and target YOU.

So if newspapers or any other websites want to use weaponized ad-tech on me, then excuse me, but I'm gonna block the shit out of them with no remorse, to protect myself.

replies(2): >>pb7+NA1 >>JAlexo+eE1
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25. idopms+2h1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:04:03
>>lapeti+861
You can't, but that's not a particularly good example of why it's hard to stop doing business with private companies, because the reason you can't stop doing business with them is that the government has specifically mandated it.
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26. abadpo+Ej1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 18:15:32
>>savana+h41
It isn’t simple at all. You lack nuance.

You can stop doing business with Mom&Pop’s coffee shop relatively easily, just like you can move to a different town to get away from your city government authority.

But you’re practically never going to truly get away from Meta, Google, Amazon, Nestle, McKesson, ATT, and those behemoths due to their size, similar to how you’re going to struggle to get out from under the US Federal government.

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27. MereIn+Bt1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 19:00:26
>>ActorN+t01
Sure! It isn't like negligence-induced explosions have stopped [0]. Companies spy on you [1] and collude to set your rent [2]. Companies decide if you get medical treatment [3], and whether that medical treatment is safe [4]. Companies even decide on whether your food is safe [5].

Now, for a productive conversation, I'd recommend you putting effort in as well, instead of just sea lioning [6].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Beirut_explosion

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica#Privacy_is...

[2] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/10/company-that-mak...

[3] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/analysis-health-insuranc...

[4] https://arstechnica.com/health/2023/07/not-again-bone-grafts...

[5] https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/08/poopy-lettuce-at-wen...

[6] https://wondermark.com/c/1k62/

replies(1): >>ActorN+zw3
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28. pb7+NA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 19:36:45
>>Firmwa+Lg1
Targeted ads are more effective and therefore fetch a higher premium and therefore monetize the host site better than non-targeted ads. You would need 10x the ads to make up the revenue and there's not enough space or user patience for that.
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29. taway1+7B1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 19:37:53
>>JAlexo+HE
You personally can't, but a majority can. My country just did that (voted out a regressive government).
replies(1): >>JAlexo+lF1
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30. JAlexo+eE1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 19:52:02
>>Firmwa+Lg1
> How do you know I am not willing to pay?

Because we've been there, done that. How many local or small news outlet subscriptions do you have? I'm pretty sure it's not a lot.

> We've had ad supported websites, forums and blogs since the 90's, but those were generic and harmless, and wouldn't track and target YOU.

And as a result any website with reasonable traffic, would have to put up a million ads - to just break even. Attendance was rising, costs associated with maintenance as well. Advertisers don't want to pay just to show random individuals ads that have close to 0 chance of being useful.

Generic advertising effectively excludes smaller companies from advertising space. If your advertising budget is $50k today, with targeted ads, you can effectively spend it to show your product to people who would be interested in it. Without, you have to spend $1mil on ads to show it to everyone and get results equal to spending $1k with targeted ads.

> weaponized ad-tech

Yes, yes... The "mid 20ies, IT person, with interest in HN" is definitely a weapon to take "you" down. Quit with the hyperbole, no ad tech keeps anything remotely interesting about you.

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31. JAlexo+lF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-02 19:55:54
>>taway1+7B1
Barely, my Polish neighbor...

And no, they're not going to magically stop funding the Catholic church or become a safe haven for LGBT people.

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32. ActorN+zw3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-03 09:19:51
>>MereIn+Bt1
I guess you missed the "and applicable to majority of the population"

Nobody is gonna argue that companies are going to require zero regulation. There will be instances of companies trying to bullshit their way to get more profit, and for this reason the regulations exist, but these all isolated cases.

The point is that widespread advertising legislation on every single company by non technical people in the government under a false pretense of increasing privacy is not really a good thing. Governments should be there to step in when companies get out of line, but in that case, the task is clear. Introducing legislation that later on can be used to push more nefarious agendas are not.

After all, both governments and companies are ran by people.

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33. Capric+qTa[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-11-05 19:20:56
>>devsda+UE
Yes I don't mean to say the companies are easy to avoid in general, but the OP claimed governments can easily be voted out.
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