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[parent] [thread] 18 comments
1. confou+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-09-08 13:31:31
Have you lived near where they celebrate J’Ouvert? I used to live in that part of Brooklyn for 10 years and the festival always incited crime and violence in our immediate area.

I’m not saying drones are the answer, but it is not by any means a totally harmless event.

For those downvoting who don’t want to accept reality, below is an article from just a few days ago. It happens every year.

https://www.amny.com/new-york/brooklyn/spate-of-violence-sul...

replies(3): >>MrBudd+L2 >>coucha+O4 >>Spivak+46
2. MrBudd+L2[view] [source] 2023-09-08 13:46:17
>>confou+(OP)
Are those STOP guys the same currently being indicted on RICO charges?
3. coucha+O4[view] [source] 2023-09-08 13:56:26
>>confou+(OP)
I was working a shift at the coop on Monday and was pleasantly surprised when two women in extravagantly oversized, feathered and sequined outfits came in on their way home from the parade. So yes, I do live in this community.

I don't think anyone denies that there is often crime and violence in Flatbush, Brownsville, Crown Heights, and other neighborhoods around the parade route. In particular, it's a stretch to assume that everyone giving you downvotes "doesn't want to accept reality".

For my part, I wonder about the most effective way to reduce incidences of violence in our community. I know that these are some of the neighborhoods that have systematically been denied investment, perhaps that has a part to play? Also, these neighborhoods have experienced the brunt of overpolicing in our community for quite a long time. Somehow I don't think that the answer is more police. I don't think the answer is normalizing this appalling and illegal move.

replies(1): >>confou+a6
4. Spivak+46[view] [source] 2023-09-08 14:02:54
>>confou+(OP)
You're being downvoted not because fights broke out at a parade but because you think such an event apparently justifies arbitrary levels of policing where the cops still don't actually do anything in the realm of preventing the harm rather than just cleaning it up. I've been in crowds where this kind of stuff happens, although to be fair never with a gun so maybe it's different, but the random people in the crowd jump into breaking up the fight way faster than the cops.

My city, which is not exemplary by any means, after a fuckton of political backlash about the "policing" that happens at protests and parades switched to having a small group of unarmed cops specially trained in deescalation (which is mostly marketing but eh, sure) and comprised of almost entirely minorities, women, and older folks. They're not at all shy about this unit being visibly nonthreatening and they just walk with the people, sometimes joining them. We haven't had any "riots" ever since. It's allllllmost like the police had been instigating them, funny that.

replies(2): >>parine+R6 >>datame+bg
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5. confou+a6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 14:03:44
>>coucha+O4
What alternatives do you propose other than enforcement?

What sorts of investments do you believe will directly and effectively curb violence and crime?

What does underinvestment have to do with J’Ouvert crime specifically?

replies(1): >>coucha+L8
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6. parine+R6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 14:07:50
>>Spivak+46
>cops still don't actually do anything in the realm of preventing the harm rather than just cleaning it up.

That's their job. "Preventing harm" is acting _before_ crime happens. It's politicians and citizens job to prevent harm.

replies(3): >>coucha+oa >>UncleM+wf >>datame+nh
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7. coucha+L8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 14:16:06
>>confou+a6
I suggest that we work to bring about a world where policing is unneccessary, even unthinkable. I refuse to accept the premise that we must consider any individual event in isolation -- we are all connected and all of our struggles our connected.

For this to work we have to start by taking a sober look at the history of the concentration of power under capitalism, and how the use of force by the police has repeatedly and systematically kept the masses under control.

We have to analyze the true root causes of crime, and work to eliminate those forces. It is not only immorral, but simply impractical, to make any attempt to address broad social unrest solely at the point where symptoms arise.

replies(1): >>confou+rf
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8. coucha+oa[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 14:24:13
>>parine+R6
You seem to see through the deception, but most don't. The whole policing house of cards is built on the idea that they "stop crime". They don't really, as you point out. In general, they do a pretty terrible job cleaning up after crimes occur, too.

The one thing that police consistently and effectively do is themselves act as a criminal organization outside the law. They cause destruction and mayhem regularly on very flimsy premises and see little to no oversight for it.

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9. confou+rf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 14:49:12
>>coucha+L8
You’ve offered no specific or practical alternatives, just idealistic babble, and are yet calling for the scaling back of direct and actionable enforcement.

People like you, the political climate you create, and the policies you vote for, are largely why our cities are devolving.

replies(3): >>trinsi+7o >>coucha+Fu >>nkjnlk+XU
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10. UncleM+wf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 14:49:30
>>parine+R6
Great. So cops are not actually achieving any goal of keeping people safe, since they fundamentally do not prevent harm.
replies(1): >>parine+bl
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11. datame+bg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 14:52:25
>>Spivak+46
You know, it occurs to me that part of their reluctance to jump in and help is that they know they have painted targets on their backs and that some people won't pass up an opportunity at a swing in the close confines of a crowd. They fear the people when outnumbered because all of their policies, strategies, and tactics involve controlling with fear. They don't see themselves as aiding fellow citizens, it's more like begrudgingly assisting the enemy you're actually supposed to eye suspiciously and subjugate. This feeds the cycle. Oh how they reap what they sow!

And to add: shooting a guy in an abuse of force during a traffic stop on an empty highway leaves no witnesses. A crowd will have a hundred eyewitnesses and dozens of phones recording.

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12. datame+nh[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 14:56:46
>>parine+R6
Directly from the NYPD website:

" Values

In partnership with the community, we pledge to:

Protect the lives and property of our fellow citizens and impartially enforce the law.

Fight crime, both by preventing it and aggressively pursuing violators of the law.

Maintain a higher standard of integrity than is generally expected of others because so much is expected of us.

Value human life, respect the dignity of each individual and render our services with courtesy and civility."

It occurs to me that the concept of fighting crime is as much of a misnomer as the war on drugs, providing the wrong primer for the mind. One cannot fight a concept or object. I think it's important to retire the phrase. They see everything they do as fighting, they're trained to see threats, and so threats they will see regardless. (Just the wrong ones)

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13. parine+bl[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 15:12:35
>>UncleM+wf
They "protect and serve" by attempting to intervene in crime in progress if possible but mostly trying to find the people who've committed crimes so they can be held accountable by the state and it's citizens (jury of your peers and all that).

At least ideally. It doesn't always work that way but it's a misnomer to blame the police for a neighborhood being unsafe and you're going to be disappointed if you expect them to.

replies(2): >>ryandr+8B >>UncleM+xn1
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14. trinsi+7o[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 15:22:14
>>confou+rf
Agreed. There are legitimate reasons to have enforcement. The problem is the peace officer part has been divorced from the role. Getting rid of the role of a peace officer is not a good idea.
replies(1): >>nkjnlk+HV
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15. coucha+Fu[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 15:46:04
>>confou+rf
It's troubling that you seem to expect a succint answer to a huge and complex problem, and you immediately write off any ideas that ask you to think first.

> our cities are devolving.

Turn off fox news and visit any of them and you'll see that American cities today are experiencing a rennaissance.

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16. ryandr+8B[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 16:13:21
>>parine+bl
They also get called to many non-crimes and to other situations that do not require armed, violent responses.

I think it would be great to set up competition to Police forces: Cities should create and staff an unarmed "Helper Force" who gets deployed to non-emergencies, to help people in distress, investigate "Karen's" complaints of this and that, to defuse mental health episodes (maybe bring a social worker), incidents involving children, rescuing cats out of trees, and so on. Carry on for a year, and then have both the Helper force and the Police force summarize in writing how they benefitted the community over then last 12 months, and have them fight for funding on the basis of that report.

I think taxpayers would decide that they'd rather have the helpers.

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17. nkjnlk+XU[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 17:38:49
>>confou+rf
https://www.amazon.com/No-More-Police-Case-Abolition/dp/1620...

If you're actually interested and not just asking someone to elaborate on a complex problem over a HackerNews comment. An equally uncharitable opponent could ask you to prove that heavy policing (or at least the NYPD) has played a significant role in reducing crime.

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18. nkjnlk+HV[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 17:42:16
>>trinsi+7o
Enforcing peace (where peace is not defined solely by white landowners) has _never_ been the role of the police officer in America.
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19. UncleM+xn1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-09-08 19:51:26
>>parine+bl
If the only thing police did was correctly and safely execute arrest warrants for specific people I think people would be far less critical of them.
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