zlacker

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1. knight+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-07-29 09:15:44
"...whether the site’s original tech-intellectual culture can be responsibly scaled up to make space for a more inclusive, wider-ranging vision of technology."

I don't come to Hacker News for "inclusive" technology - which these days appear to be a politically-correct euphemism for forced diversity.

I come to Hacker News for discussions on technology.

Anything that prioritizes the "inclusive" nature of technology, versus the "technology" itself, is irrelevant to me, and has nothing to do with the main interests of the site (hacking and technology) and should be downvoted. Keep politics and social politics out from Hacker News.

replies(8): >>seoulb+32 >>mschus+g5 >>saiya-+q5 >>rosmax+T6 >>jpmora+z8 >>mcdonj+9f >>DonHop+Cj >>sander+I01
2. seoulb+32[view] [source] 2023-07-29 09:41:08
>>knight+(OP)
Amen
3. mschus+g5[view] [source] 2023-07-29 10:20:33
>>knight+(OP)
The thing is, technology alone without taking care about ethics and politics as well can be extremely dangerous for society itself. Just look at Facebook, with Zuckerberg's infamous "the dumb fucks trust me" quote from its early days and later on the scandals about Cambridge Analytica or its role in getting Trump elected. Or Whatsapp and the series of lynchings resulting from the new feature of forwarding messages, leading to fake news spreading faster than the old "chain letters".

[1] https://www.theregister.com/2010/05/14/facebook_trust_dumb/

replies(2): >>Y_Y+S6 >>rosmax+M7
4. saiya-+q5[view] [source] 2023-07-29 10:22:51
>>knight+(OP)
Yet, often non-technical topics are upvoted massively, indicating big interest in HN community in this topic. So you are saying we should enforce the opposite, because 'this is Hacker news'? Not much of a difference to me as indifferent bystander, 2 extremists discussing whose side is more righteous if you ask me.

A random example - astronomy, my pet love, is discussed here often, yet rarely articles themselves have anything to do with 'hacking' or technology. I don't see much protests against that.

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5. Y_Y+S6[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-29 10:36:19
>>mschus+g5
You make a strong point, but it's not clear to me that it addresses the concern of GP. That is to say, I find myself generally in agreement with your post and theirs and don't see a conflict, the clear harms you mention don't seem to me to result from insufficient "diversity" (in this particular sense).
replies(2): >>mschus+V8 >>sander+131
6. rosmax+T6[view] [source] 2023-07-29 10:36:25
>>knight+(OP)
I was going to make a comment similar to this one, but you saved me the time. The fact that this site is not trying to be part of the otherwise global phenomena of politically-correct forced diversity is one of the thing which makes it good.
replies(1): >>sander+F21
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7. rosmax+M7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-29 10:42:45
>>mschus+g5
I agree that facebook is a great example of tech being dangerous for society, but that it's an example of a blatantly politically correct censorship platform, besides the problems regarding mental/social health caused by using it.

The largest problems tech faces nowadays is not spreading fake news at the speed of light, but the suppression of real and necessary political discourse in what has arguably been a significant portion the new town square for the last century.

replies(1): >>Eisens+mr
8. jpmora+z8[view] [source] 2023-07-29 10:49:59
>>knight+(OP)
It seems the sense of the words 'inclusive' and 'diverse' in the article is broader than the politics meaning you ascribe to them.

A quote from one of the moderators:

>Intellectual curiosity is everywhere, and it’s present in all demographics,

>We want Hacker News to grow in all demographics, because there’s just intellectually interesting contributions from all of those communities—a greater diversity of content, of conversations, of topics, et cetera.

Which is just another way of stating the guidelines:

On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.

Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

The stuff you don't like is already off-topic, unless there is intellectually interesting discussion to be had.

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9. mschus+V8[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-29 10:54:05
>>Y_Y+S6
> the clear harms you mention don't seem to me to result from insufficient "diversity"

Of course they do. Simply put: a bunch of young, rich white Western men - they never experience the insane danger that are part of the daily life of women: men stalking them using every way they can, raping them, killing them, or doxxing them just because they can "for the lulz". Both do not experience the racism and discrimination Black people go through, and neither of these have the experience of people in the Balkans, India or other countries with ethnic and religious tensions. And that's just the tip of the iceberg - discrimination runs rampant across all our societies, with technology lessening the effects of some of it (e.g. AI-generated descriptions of images for the blind), and making others exponentially worse (especially online harassment).

More diversity in anything tech automatically means more eyeballs on how a new (or existing) technology can be used by malicious actors to cause harm. For me the worst case in the last few years where this was clearly not done were AirTags - they are immensely useful, but it took over two years and uncountable reports of AirTags being used to facilitate crime of all kind to get a detection feature in Android [1].

[1] https://blog.google/products/android/unknown-tracker-alert-g...

replies(1): >>Y_Y+Wa
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10. Y_Y+Wa[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-29 11:11:58
>>mschus+V8
Doesn't this conflate diversity of identity with diversity of perspective?

You don't have to be raped and killed daily to have an valuable opinion. Indians, Serbians, Black Americans, rich western whites, these are all just humans who, a priori, are just as worthwhile as one another.

I get that you have in mind particular kind of harm that you want to prevent, and that this is a priority for you, but reasonable people can and do differ in their opinions on what's harmful and what they'd like to talk about.

replies(2): >>mschus+fr >>sander+Q31
11. mcdonj+9f[view] [source] 2023-07-29 11:51:39
>>knight+(OP)
Including people is not political. People are not being political by being different and wanting to participate. People are not being political for wanting to make technology that works for people who have different needs related to their abilities or identities.

Technology doesn't happen in a vacuum. It is made by people and for people. People who are not all the same.

YOU are being political by pretending that including people is political.

replies(1): >>hurutp+Ro
12. DonHop+Cj[view] [source] 2023-07-29 12:24:46
>>knight+(OP)
Yet you're conspicuously injecting your own anti-social politics by your own performative parading of "Malevolence Signaling".
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13. hurutp+Ro[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-29 13:06:12
>>mcdonj+9f
I feel like this might be a little intellectually dishonest. I think we all know that this comment was never about blind people and their screen readers, but the subversive identity politics that are being played in the name of diversity and inclusion.
replies(1): >>mcdonj+Mt
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14. mschus+fr[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-29 13:24:00
>>Y_Y+Wa
> You don't have to be raped and killed daily to have an valuable opinion.

The thing is socialization: women are taught from a shockingly young age to be wary of men, dark alleys, tunnels, parks, everything. Black people to be careful around police.

Of course even if you do not belong to a group of people who face regular discrimination, you can still be mindful of the issues the groups face - but it won't ever be an as natural part of your thinking.

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15. Eisens+mr[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-29 13:25:15
>>rosmax+M7
You think we need more political discourse in our lives? It seems to me that political discourse on social media is mostly limited to 'I'm pissed off that people don't agree with me and refuse to listen to them to understand why'. That doesn't seem helpful.
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16. mcdonj+Mt[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-29 13:41:42
>>hurutp+Ro
I agree that there is intellectual dishonesty in this conversation, but I disagree that I'm the one who is being dishonest.

What exactly is there to subvert if everyone is included?

replies(2): >>tb_tec+bD >>gray_c+ER
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17. tb_tec+bD[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-29 14:44:30
>>mcdonj+Mt
Yes, because we all know that's all that's going on with this subject.
replies(1): >>Eisens+OK
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18. Eisens+OK[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-29 15:35:53
>>tb_tec+bD
Insinuation is not an argument. Please make one.
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19. gray_c+ER[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-29 16:17:49
>>mcdonj+Mt
You're being dishonest by implying that discussion of technology is inherently not inclusive and that an effort needs to be made to be inclusive by allowing people who feel oppressed (whether they are or are not) to play in the "oppression olympics" by creating tangential opinionated discussions regarding policy or ethical guidelines that have nothing to do with the technology or the problem the technology is trying to solve.

Technology is inherently apolitical and inclusive. Anyone who claims otherwise is just trying to stir up useless internet flame wars. If you want to uselessly rant about politics on the internet you can go to Reddit.

replies(1): >>sander+C11
20. sander+I01[view] [source] 2023-07-29 17:07:15
>>knight+(OP)
Inclusiveness here and in other similar places is good, not because it is "politically correct" (whatever that even means), but because diversity of all kinds is good for software technology as both a commercial and hobby interest.

This concept that diversity is good isn't even controversial beyond the culture war. Ask any financial planner how to manage your investment portfolio and they'll tell you it's important to diversify. Ask a power grid operator and they'll tell you it's good to have diversity across different kinds of generation.

Diversifying the kinds of people, viewpoints, and experiences that participate in our little corner of the world is good for exactly the same reasons. Putting all one's eggs into a single basket is always a bad idea.

Maybe you find active attempts to make the field more attractive to - that is, more inclusive for - different kinds of people annoying. That's fine, I think HN can be inclusive of both your annoyance and my annoyance with your annoyance :)

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21. sander+C11[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-29 17:12:21
>>gray_c+ER
> allowing people who feel oppressed (whether they are or are not) to play in the "oppression olympics" by creating tangential opinionated discussions

Prior to your comment, nobody in this thread has said anything about any of this. This is all stuff that you seem to have read into things people have said that don't actually say anything of the sort.

replies(1): >>gray_c+343
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22. sander+F21[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-29 17:18:22
>>rosmax+T6
The funny thing about the way people use "politically correct" nowadays is that what you are saying is that the view "diversity is good" is not a correct one to espouse within your political tribe. That is, what you're saying is that it's not politically correct to have "politically correct" views. And nobody who espouses what you call "politically correct" views ever uses the term "politically correct". They just say what their actual views are.
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23. sander+131[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-29 17:21:11
>>Y_Y+S6
It is certainly far from the case that all problems and weaknesses with software technology are due to historically being too much of a monoculture, but it is not true that none are.
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24. sander+Q31[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-29 17:25:54
>>Y_Y+Wa
What is desired is broad diversity of experience and perspective. Statistically, if that goal is achieved, it will also result in diversity of identity, because many experiences and perspective are highly correlated with different identities, not universally, but statistically. This is pretty clear if you talk to a number of people across differences in both perspective and identity.
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25. gray_c+343[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-30 11:42:16
>>sander+C11
Correct, hence the accusation of dishonesty.
replies(1): >>sander+y53
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26. sander+y53[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-30 11:55:35
>>gray_c+343
You believe that an effective way to discuss things is to manufacture views that your interlocutors never expressed, and then consider it dishonest that they never expressed those views you manufactured for them?

I, for one, consider it very dishonest that you have yet to say a single word in this thread about your belief in leprechauns with pots of gold at the ends of rainbows. Why are you hiding your views? Just be honest!

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