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1. kristo+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-07-27 05:52:49
I wonder if offering a more generous Nordic-socialism style maternity policy would help.

There's a bunch of cultural reasons for the low birthrate but a bunch of encouraging benefits might help address that.

replies(5): >>Teeorb+t >>nindal+l2 >>NoMore+J5 >>jkhdig+sf >>sneed_+Yo
2. Teeorb+t[view] [source] 2023-07-27 05:57:30
>>kristo+(OP)
Japan is way too densely populated in comparison to Nordic countries. It is difficult to alter a country's socioeconomic status by mimicking some foreign policies originated from a country of desired template.
replies(2): >>Hamuko+i1 >>rvba+V9
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3. Hamuko+i1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 06:04:59
>>Teeorb+t
How is population density related to social benefits?
replies(3): >>bluepo+i4 >>greisk+x4 >>Teeorb+P4
4. nindal+l2[view] [source] 2023-07-27 06:12:25
>>kristo+(OP)
You can offer benefits but it’s harder to make people take the benefits. Japan has great paternity leave but no one takes it, because no one else takes it. You can double the length of the leave and it would make no difference.

It’s like the “unlimited” vacation days that some scummy companies offer. They do so confident that people will be shamed by the behaviour of their peers into taking very little vacation.

replies(1): >>rowanG+h5
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5. bluepo+i4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 06:28:29
>>Hamuko+i1
https://sustainablereview.com/high-population-density-pros-a...

There’s a Pros/Cons table where the first row almost seems like a paradox. A “pro” of a high population density is that you have access to resources. A “con” is that the resources are still limited.

replies(1): >>greisk+65
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6. greisk+x4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 06:30:10
>>Hamuko+i1
In fact, it should be the opposite. You get way more economy of scales in providing a social safety net in dense areas than in sparse areas. Hospitals can cover more people, social workers can handle more cases, public transportation becomes cheaper, etc.
replies(2): >>Teeorb+26 >>isykt+RE
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7. Teeorb+P4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 06:32:46
>>Hamuko+i1
Japan's economy has been long replying on the "integrity" of a more connected society as to the Nordic ones, due to a large population (and high density). Integrity suppresses characteristics of people, so they are more collectivist(more exploited by the heirachy:() and the competition is intense due to this population density. Asia vs West basically.

S Korea is very similar to Japan, also facing the same problem of population decline, you can view S Korea(or even Taiwan) as a lately developed and peninsula version of Japan. Each of them with limited resources and a dense population, in which made J and K what they are today (You can look up how these two countries developed, I am not an expert historian). Even China, has a significant decrease in newborn population, despite its vast landmass and less developed population.

So basically, the achievement of development is brought by whatever suppresses the population at the same time, they are sort of at the local maximum of their country at current time point. The Nordic countries meanwhile are much loosely populated, higher average resources and so on, although not as capitalist as US. Again I am not a Nordic expert, but the distinction is significant enough that I can say applying their policies in Asian countries will not work.

Each country has its own "ecology", that are of course constantly interacting with each other so to speak, but still inertial wrt some policies that are do not cope with it well.

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8. greisk+65[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 06:34:27
>>bluepo+i4
This page is completely wrong in so many levels. It says it's talking about population density, but many of the cons are about population numbers. If you have the same number of people of a city, but spread out more, it is harder to provide services for them. Pollution? Yeah, a city looks bad, until you realize how suburban sprawl absolutely decimates entire ecosystems in huge areas. It is way better for the planet if human beings concentrate in a few places, and try to leave the biggest amount of area possible to nature. Also, the pollution per capita of less dense areas is way bigger, since the lack of public transit means everybody needs to drive everywhere.
replies(1): >>bluepo+ld2
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9. rowanG+h5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 06:36:20
>>nindal+l2
An easy change would be to make it mandatory.
replies(3): >>Hamuko+W5 >>Tozen+do >>syocki+iP
10. NoMore+J5[view] [source] 2023-07-27 06:40:54
>>kristo+(OP)
It wouldn't help.

While it might be true that everyone has a price, if we plucked someone off the street and they told us they never wanted children (at all, or more than they have now), how much money do you think it would take to persuade them to have a kid?

Do you think it would be $1000? How about $4500? Maybe it costs a whole $12,000 right? These are the sorts of incentives that are offered in Europe, in South Korea, etc. They don't seem to influence much extra in the way of births. And it's not difficult to see why... those people are told (whether true or not) that children are far more costly than those sums. So we're still talking about it being net negative.

In some publications, people in the western world are told that it's some large fraction of a million dollars to raise a child to adulthood. How many babies could Japan afford, if it had to pay parents $500k for each?

It's even worse than that though. Many Japanese women of child-bearing age aren't even in circumstances where it is plausible for them to consider having a child. No husband, or a husband whose career doesn't make being the sole provider possible. Little chance of those circumstances changing before motherhood is out of the question. Etc.

replies(2): >>Mandie+Fd >>jkhdig+wg
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11. Hamuko+W5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 06:42:32
>>rowanG+h5
I'm not sure if the Japanese society is big on obeying labour laws. You'd have to make it mandatory and enforce it heavily.

https://japantoday.com/category/crime/illegal-amounts-of-ove...

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12. Teeorb+26[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 06:43:28
>>greisk+x4
Scale economy is too simplistic, that it is ignoring loads of social aspects of a realistic economy. Also population cannot be stacked together costlessly(scale economy within a limited landscape), just imagine this place, can you live there?

In fact, no single one highly and densely populated developed region can have a significant positive growth in population. There is much more than just scale of economy.

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13. rvba+V9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 07:16:02
>>Teeorb+t
Didnt japan litetally mimic the west and rapidly modernize to move from "samurai age" to modern age?
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14. Mandie+Fd[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 07:47:52
>>NoMore+J5
Maybe do things that take the pressure off fathers to be sole providers?

What the Nordics in general do well, and Germany does ok, is preserve the ability of mothers to have careers, thus making motherhood a bit less of a drastic decision (it’s still a drastic decision. You’re committing to unconditionally love someone who will, say, bite you hard on the shoulder because you had the temerity to suggest it was time to go potty instead of play with trains, and to take the physical damage of pregnancy that has so far led to my first broken bone and back pain that never quite goes away)

But I’m still working in my pre-maternity department, in a scaled-back version of my old job, and more critically, keeping up with our industry about as well as my not-mother colleagues, so once the little nipper can escort himself home from school, I can more easily go back to full time.

And in case my husband loses his job that currently is our main source of income, we have the backstop of my job and the potential to go back to my full time IT income.

This would be far more difficult in a country where my large employer was not obliged to let me work part time for several years, and Elterngeld didn’t make taking a year off after the birth of a child fully expected and planned for by employers. My husband was also able (and expected) to take a month off after the birth, and then another when I went back to work. A lot of men in relatively conservative Bavaria were initially hesitant to take those two months, but it’s now normal. We’re not at the point that it’s normal for most fathers to also exercise their right to switching to a part time schedule for their children’s first few years - no idea if this happens more often in Berlin or Hamburg.

Germany has its own demographic problems, but not as severe as Japan’s.

replies(1): >>NoMore+7K
15. jkhdig+sf[view] [source] 2023-07-27 08:02:16
>>kristo+(OP)
Not a lot of evidence that economic incentives change birthrates, unless they are completely over the top like Hungary’s lifetime income tax exemption for women who become mothers before 30. But that’s only been in effect for a few years so the verdict is still out.
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16. jkhdig+wg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 08:12:34
>>NoMore+J5
Your last point is the one that really matters. No woman wants to have a child out of marriage, and marriage rates continue to fall while the mean age of first marriage is almost 30.
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17. Tozen+do[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 09:17:42
>>rowanG+h5
You are also fighting what has become a tradition and cultural norms. There is a huge struggle to stop companies from committing wage theft (through unpaid extra work hours) or straight out overworking their employees (sometimes to the point of suicide).
18. sneed_+Yo[view] [source] 2023-07-27 09:23:00
>>kristo+(OP)
Probably not much, seeing as every Nordic country has sub-replacement total fertility rates as well.
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19. isykt+RE[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 11:32:41
>>greisk+x4
Yeah, but having 2.1 kids in an apartment that’s 66m2 is annoying as hell. Especially when you work all the time.
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20. NoMore+7K[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 12:14:00
>>Mandie+Fd
In other places, where culturally the pressure is already off of the men to be sole providers (central Europe, Scandinavia), incentives don't seem to help there.

But, even if that could help, the cultural changes Japan requires to make that possible, just aren't feasible in fewer than half a dozen generations. Which is sort of what they're running out of anyway.

Germany will get to where Japan is, and it will be within our own lifetimes.

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21. syocki+iP[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 12:48:06
>>rowanG+h5
Some of my colleagues were already complaining that the government is forcing them to take leave. I can't imagine how much grumpier they will get if the government forces them to take even more.
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22. bluepo+ld2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 18:18:38
>>greisk+65
I think the one row about resources still makes sense though. You didn’t even answer OP’s original question regarding it in your reply. All you did was state an opinion as a fact without providing any proof. At least, I attempted to do so. A simple counterexample to your “common sense” claim that it’s easier to provide resources when people aren’t spread apart is housing.

I didn’t even read the pollution part. That’s a whole different topic that wasn’t being discussed.

But thanks for the downvote! Next time, please make sure your reply is up to par if you feel the need to downvote.

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