zlacker

[parent] [thread] 40 comments
1. devit+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-07-25 08:19:28
In case it's not obvious, here is how the attack works:

1. The attacker manufactures a device, such as a smartphone, generates a keypair for it, stores it on an HSM on the device (generally called a "trusted enclave"), and signs the public key of the keypair with a master key

2. The device runs the attacker's software and is designed so that whenever non-attacker software is run with elevated privileges, the HSM is informed of that fact in a way that can't be reset without rebooting (and starting again with the attacker's software). For instance, the device might use a verified boot scheme, send the key the OS is signed with to the HSM in a way that is unchangeable until reboot, and it might employ hardening like having the CPU encrypt RAM or apply an HMAC to RAM

3. The HSM produces signatures of messages that contain statements that the device is running the attacker's software, plus whatever the attacker's software wants to communicate and it won't produce them if it's running software of the user's choice as opposed to the attacker's software as established above. It also includes the signature of its public key with the master keypair, allowing accomplices to check that the device is indeed not under the user's control, but rather under the control of someone they trust to effectively limit the user's freedom

4. Optionally, that attestation is passed through the attacker's servers, which check it and return another attestation signed by themselves, allowing to anonymize the device and apply arbitrary other criteria

5. Conniving third parties can thus use this scheme to ensure that they are interacting with a device running the attacker's software, and thus that the device is restricting the user behavior as the attacker specifies. For instance, it can ensure that the device is running the accomplice's code unmodified, preventing the user from being able to run software of their choice, and it can ensure that the user is using device as desired by the attacker and their accomplices.

This attack is already running against Android smartphone users (orchestrated by Google, in the form of SafetyNet and the Play Integrity API) and iOS smartphone users (orchestrated by Apple) and this extends the attack to the web.

replies(5): >>Doxin+t7 >>benter+tb >>CalRob+Wk >>o11c+M01 >>insani+g11
2. Doxin+t7[view] [source] 2023-07-25 09:28:31
>>devit+(OP)
Can I just say I appreciate the framing of this as an attack? Somehow I hadn't yet mentally filed Google and friends under "Man in the middle" but that's pretty much exactly what's going on.

This Web Integrity API is just a means to cement themselves as obligatory man in the middle, as opposed to an optional one.

replies(1): >>notpus+Q9
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3. notpus+Q9[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 09:52:52
>>Doxin+t7
Agreed. GP comment was extremely weird to read, but I agree with the sentiment 100%.
replies(1): >>chii+Hf
4. benter+tb[view] [source] 2023-07-25 10:08:16
>>devit+(OP)
Actually it would be useful to present the problem using your framing - in the press, blogs, everywhere. The other side is already bending over backwards to stretch the meaning of words (their introduction about DRM being "the backbone of the open Internet" made me me sick).
replies(2): >>devn0l+Mc >>kijin+4p
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5. devn0l+Mc[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 10:16:57
>>benter+tb
Also make DRM the abbreviation of "Digital Restrictions Management", which from the users perspective it is.
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6. chii+Hf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 10:45:57
>>notpus+Q9
it's not weird, but it's just that you're not used to seeing google as an attacker. But they definitely are in this spec.
replies(1): >>relaun+Ln
7. CalRob+Wk[view] [source] 2023-07-25 11:30:37
>>devit+(OP)
Is there an option to have a smartphone and avoid this attack? The moribund Ubuntu phone comes to mind.
replies(2): >>daniel+om >>kevinc+8J1
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8. daniel+om[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 11:39:42
>>CalRob+Wk
Yes, but accomplices can, in this case, refuse to serve the phone in question - receiving sufficient traffic from infected devices to meet their needs.
replies(1): >>ragnes+021
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9. relaun+Ln[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 11:50:39
>>chii+Hf
It might be my security hat speaking, but I see it as insecure, regardless of who is man in the middling the connection.

I'm not a tinfoil hat, but security can't hang it's hat on the kindness of strangers.

replies(2): >>insani+L11 >>mindsl+ud1
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10. kijin+4p[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 12:00:20
>>benter+tb
The framing would work just as well if we substituted for Google a certain not-exactly-friendly-with-the-U.S. regime that also happens to produce a shitload of smartphones. Whatever we don't want them to be able to do to our smartphones, we don't want Google to be able to do, either.
replies(2): >>benter+Br >>pydry+Ey
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11. benter+Br[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 12:18:35
>>kijin+4p
In theory - yes, but in practice TikTok gets a lot of bashing while its American equivalents manage to get away with basically the same behavior. Meta and Google aside, Uber created Greyball to avoid regulations, they even had (still have?) a special "Ripley" button to use when facing audit, so how can we expect a foreign regime to abide by our laws if we give our own companies a free pass? And when local governments try to limit Uber's unlawful[0] actions, we threaten them with freezing our investments in other sectors? [1]

[0] https://us.boell.org/en/2019/10/17/web-partner-companies-kee...

[1] https://tvpworld.com/40781592/another-letter-from-us-ambassa...

replies(1): >>apppli+1A
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12. pydry+Ey[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 13:06:02
>>kijin+4p
Nobody much cares about Tiktok being run by China despite years of fearmongering about it by powerful elites with the entirety of the mass media at their disposal.

Highly abstract risks just dont seem to register for most people. It was hard enough to get the masses to act in self interest over an existential risk to their health (covid).

I reckon the way to avoid maximum damage from this proposal will be some sort of inoculation - e.g. safe, trusted, easy to use tools that help people work around it. The political angle of attack is worth trying but I think it will fail.

I wish Mozilla worked that angle too - e.g. supporting lineage and microg.

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13. apppli+1A[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 13:12:42
>>benter+Br
I don’t think they mean TikTok. Huawei has been banned in the US for years for basically being permanently backdoored hardware for the Chinese government. The precedent, history, and motivations are clear. American companies trying to avoid regulation is scummy, but it’s basically the exact opposite of acting as an corporate extension of the government.
14. o11c+M01[view] [source] 2023-07-25 15:04:13
>>devit+(OP)
And of course the unfixable side-effect of the fact that we're ultimately sending electricity over wires:

6. Any additional party with sufficient ability to modify hardware can still attack the attacker and their accomplices. So such parties only benefit from this, at the cost of typical users.

15. insani+g11[view] [source] 2023-07-25 15:06:25
>>devit+(OP)
So the attacker in this scenario is producing my hardware? That sounds ridiculous, if that were the case they could do anything they want anyways, I see no way in which the scenario you've discussed is materially different from "attacker can literally do anything anyway, they own the hardware".

And this "attacker" gets... what? Nothing. Because this isn't an attacker... it's a device manufacturer. You've described how attestation works except you've described the TPM as an attacker, which is silly.

replies(3): >>bri3d+I41 >>BSEdlM+gg1 >>thomas+KV2
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16. insani+L11[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 15:07:56
>>relaun+Ln
> I'm not a tinfoil hat, but security can't hang it's hat on the kindness of strangers.

Given that SSO is a massive security win and has been a game changer for removing passwords, I think it's been shown that delegation is extremely effective.

replies(2): >>gunapo+bj1 >>codedo+Hu1
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17. ragnes+021[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 15:08:39
>>daniel+om
At some point we just have to be okay with that. Threats and protests and complaints don't matter unless we back it up with something. If that means upgrading/repairing older devices instead of new ones, or not using web services that require DRM nonsense, then so be it.

I remember in the long, long ago, when I actually visited a BUILDING to do some of my banking tasks. And when I bought physical media that took up actual 3D space in my house to watch movies. I suspect we aren't incapable of going back.

replies(3): >>sp332+W21 >>CalRob+1g1 >>JohnFe+zW1
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18. sp332+W21[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 15:11:37
>>ragnes+021
We don’t, and TFA is Mozilla rejecting this.
replies(1): >>ragnes+lT1
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19. bri3d+I41[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 15:18:45
>>insani+g11
That's the point of this framing - it's pitching the device manufacturer as an attacker and Secure Enclave as their sinister fortress inside your device. This is an age-old argument against these systems, but to your point the conspiracy theory crumbles at the edges once you start trying to turn it into a threat model.
replies(1): >>insani+061
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20. insani+061[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 15:24:19
>>bri3d+I41
Yeah, I get the point, it's just a terrible framing because, as you said, this threat model is nonsensical.

It's just that this description is describing an "attack" that is just how attestation works. If you have a problem with attestation, talk about that problem, calling it "an attack" does nothing.

I'm actually against the proposal, too - although I see the merits. The ability to have servers authenticate clients based on the context of that client is amazing - it would seriously improve security if done right. But I personally believe that this should be done through the Device Policy extension exclusively, as it is already done there today, and that the extension should be opened and standardized.

In fact, I believe Google should be forced to do so.

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21. mindsl+ud1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 15:51:14
>>relaun+Ln
The main vulnerability isn't the man in the middle per se. Rather it's the unforgeable attestation of exactly what software an end-user is running, by the user's own hardware having been designed to betray the user's interests. This would allow powerful websites to prohibit the use of user-representing agents altogether, and essentially mark the end of the open web.
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22. CalRob+1g1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 15:59:02
>>ragnes+021
Banks have been closing branches by the hundreds (at least where I live), and buildings where you can rent physical media are dying out (see Blockbuster, though the local library is fighting a valiant rearguard action). If 96% of people will use the bank app on their Approved by Alphabet phone (or browser) then the bank can ignore the few weirdos like us.
replies(2): >>ragnes+6T1 >>JohnFe+RZ2
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23. BSEdlM+gg1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 15:59:47
>>insani+g11
it is becoming impossible to own your hardware. go cloud!
replies(1): >>insani+Hn1
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24. gunapo+bj1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 16:08:27
>>insani+L11
Why is removing passwords a massive security win? You're just moving the centralization from a password manager to SSO.
replies(1): >>insani+No1
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25. insani+Hn1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 16:22:47
>>BSEdlM+gg1
> it is becoming impossible to own your hardware

It sure is not. But I do believe we should have a legal right to own our own hardware, in every sense.

replies(1): >>BSEdlM+ec2
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26. insani+No1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 16:26:14
>>gunapo+bj1
A few reasons.

1. Instead of needing 100 passwords, which increases the chance of users just choosing something and repeating it, you have 1 password.

2. Similarly, instead of needing 2FA on 100 sites they can just have 2FA on their SSO. In fact, the other sites don't even need to support 2FA - you get that "for free" with SSO.

3. SSO providers implement auth really well. They make it smooth, as in "I don't have to reauth when it's obviously me" and safe, as in "that might not be a valid auth, let's get them to 2fa again".

Of course, if you have a password manager then (1) is not a problem. But SSO is a lot simpler for users.

replies(1): >>JohnFe+cV1
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27. codedo+Hu1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 16:43:47
>>insani+L11
A "massive security win" would be using physical non-copyable keys instead of software palliative.
replies(1): >>insani+iy1
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28. insani+iy1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 16:55:52
>>codedo+Hu1
Both things can be significant. It's worth noting that:

a) SSO has no financial cost. Hardware keys do.

b) SSO has been implemented and standard for years and is trivial for sites to support, hardware keys are much newer and are still rarely supported for authentication.

c) You can use hardware keys with SSO, which I'd recommend, and now you've gotten the benefits of both.

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29. kevinc+8J1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 17:33:42
>>CalRob+Wk
Sure. On my phone I run LineageOS. But now I can't run Google Pay, Netflix, by bank's app, the McDonalds app, Snapchat and many more. No big loss for me but as these systems get more pervasive you can only expect that this list grows. These companies want to control us and these APIs given them the possibility to do so.

* I can actually run Google Pay because the original SafetyNet API was software backed. So I can spoof a signature from an old device that didn't support hardware attestation. In particular my Pixel 4a claims to be a Nexus 5 so that Google's servers don't expect a hardware signature. But I'm sure that the clock is ticking until these apps (or Google globally) stop considering software backed validation acceptable. I'm quite sure that this Web Integrity API will be hardware backed from the start.

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30. ragnes+6T1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 18:06:03
>>CalRob+1g1
That's true. So, the question is: Do you protest now and hope there are enough of us to get them to change their minds, or do you just accept it now because it's most likely going to happen either way?
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31. ragnes+lT1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 18:06:52
>>sp332+W21
For now. I'm not a Mozilla hater like many people here seem to be, but they caved on EME, and I'm honestly very skeptical that they won't eventually cave here.
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32. JohnFe+cV1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 18:13:38
>>insani+No1
As long as using it remains optional, I don't mind that SSO systems exist. But I am personally allergic to them, so I fear the day that they are no longer optional.
replies(1): >>insani+mf2
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33. JohnFe+zW1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 18:18:59
>>ragnes+021
> At some point we just have to be okay with that

We don't have to be OK with it, but it seems inevitable that everything is just going to shit. Starting with smartphones. That's why my current smartphone will be my last one. The cost/benefit of them is no longer favorable.

I think that the web itself will be the next casualty.

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34. BSEdlM+ec2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 19:19:00
>>insani+Hn1
I live in a place where legal rights are very different from legal realities, so pardon my snark
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35. insani+mf2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 19:32:58
>>JohnFe+cV1
I fully advocate for users to be in control over how they choose to identify themselves on the internet. It's part of why I'm against the integrity proposal despite seeing a lot of value in it.
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36. thomas+KV2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 22:42:57
>>insani+g11
They get a lot more than nothing.

They sell the attack to business partners like Netflix and Spotify.

Effectively, they are selling the end users' liberty (ability to run arbitrary software, including for example, a cracked ad-free version of the Spotify app) to those business partners.

In sales-speak, this is framed as "effective Digital Rights Management", with "Rights" meaning "copyright enforcement". Critically, DRM is not a viable methodology until you provide it this attack surface.

It's also worth noting that YouTube is one of those business partners, and both Android and YouTube are owned by the same corporation: Alphabet.

replies(1): >>insani+uZ2
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37. insani+uZ2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 23:05:19
>>thomas+KV2
> They get a lot more than nothing.

Relative to their current position of already owning the hardware?

> They sell the attack to business partners like Netflix and Spotify.

I don't see how they're "selling" anything. Web Integrity requires no money to change hands. If implemented, Netflix + Spotify would owe Google nothing.

replies(1): >>thomas+XM5
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38. JohnFe+RZ2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-25 23:09:34
>>CalRob+1g1
> buildings where you can rent physical media are dying out

Yes, in terms of buildings. But I see as many RedBox kiosks around as ever.

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39. thomas+XM5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 17:42:29
>>insani+uZ2
> I don't see how they're "selling" anything. Web Integrity requires no money to change hands.

DRM is the tool that guarantees money will change hands. Without it, there is nothing but a social (legal) threat to prevent people copying and distributing copyrighted content for free.

Forcing users to run the DRM-infected version of an app creates an incentive for Netflix and Spotify to participate on the Android platform; which in turn strengthens Android's position, and the Google Play Store as a market.

This incentive goes both ways for YouTube, because it is owned by Alphabet.

> If implemented, Netflix + Spotify would owe Google nothing.

Yes, but that's not the point. Google wants Netflix and Spotify to have Android apps. Netflix and Spotify want DRM infecting their apps. Without this system in place, users can disinfect the Spotify app, and listen to music without paying Spotify money (or watching ads to pay them indirectly).

Without providing the environment for functional DRM, Netflix and Spotify can simply refuse to make Android apps. That would be a pretty weak threat, except that YouTube wants the same thing; and that incentivizes Android to play ball.

replies(1): >>insani+wU5
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40. insani+wU5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-26 18:06:46
>>thomas+XM5
> Google wants Netflix and Spotify to have Android apps.

Those apps already exist. Don't you think that kind of undermines your entire point?

replies(1): >>thomas+Eha
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41. thomas+Eha[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-27 19:37:09
>>insani+wU5
No, they can still threaten to remove them, which I'm sure they have already.
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