zlacker

[parent] [thread] 54 comments
1. buro9+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-06-27 16:17:57
WSL2 in Windows means you can just run a Debian underneath and launch a non-snap Firefox from there and have it appears in Windows.

Now you get the benefit of Windows power management (and that beautiful laptop battery life) but a web browser Microsoft isn't going to mess with.

This sounds hilarious were it not the way I actually work.

PS: I'll also mention that VSCode from Windows to WSL2 + Debian is a mind-blowingly wonderful thing, I don't know how it works but it's near magical as a dev environment when you need a full Linux but like having battery life.

replies(6): >>paprua+93 >>OJFord+ib >>0xffff+be >>trelan+Lj >>V1ndaa+rm >>MSFT_E+wE
2. paprua+93[view] [source] 2023-06-27 16:30:39
>>buro9+(OP)
What about playing media? Even when running natively, Firefox has the worst gpu acceleration support in my experience.
replies(1): >>nicce+S7
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3. nicce+S7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 16:47:56
>>paprua+93
When was the last time you used it? GPU acceleration works perfectly for me in Mac or Linux.
4. OJFord+ib[view] [source] 2023-06-27 16:58:11
>>buro9+(OP)
How are you supposed to discover and use WSL?

I got fed up with trying to run Fusion360 on Linux, no longer had a Mac, and reignited my long disused Windows installation recently. Updated and restarted. Looked around for WSL, nothing. Searched online, loads of blog spam of mixed helpfulness, no way of telling (for me, new to it) if they were v1 or v2, no basic information like they're talking about Ubuntu but is that a requirement? What changes if I want x? Looked in the app store, ..stuff yes, including 'Arch WSL' for example, but is this right? It seems to work, but really, I'm supposed to install something third-party?

I assumed it was just something that was there built-in by default, but apparently not? Probably is if I first go start run regedit and set Computer Computer Windows HKLM Software Windows Windows Linux Software WSL enable to '2', right? Easy.

replies(5): >>noSync+Mb >>Our_Be+pk >>dekhn+Hm >>xen2xe+Ym >>Aerbil+Sc1
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5. noSync+Mb[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:00:07
>>OJFord+ib
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install
6. 0xffff+be[view] [source] 2023-06-27 17:11:09
>>buro9+(OP)
What is the benefit of doing this over simply installing Firefox on Windows? After you download the Firefox installer, you're done with Windows "messing" with you.
replies(2): >>tut-ur+4g >>buro9+5l
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7. tut-ur+4g[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:17:56
>>0xffff+be
The Windows Firefox will be removed by an enterprise security suite forced upon you from your IT security. Or bogged down by antivirus. Luckily for us, 99,99% of those corporate security and IT drones have no idea what you can do with wsl.
replies(3): >>0xffff+tm >>wholin+un >>raxxor+k92
8. trelan+Lj[view] [source] 2023-06-27 17:36:53
>>buro9+(OP)
Or you could run Linux on Linux hardware and get the full hardware support and sweet battery life without the Microsoft spyware.
replies(1): >>dmitry+Jm
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9. Our_Be+pk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:40:07
>>OJFord+ib
Open a terminal and type “wsl”, it will tell you what to do from there. It’s also easily available in the MS App Store without an account.
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10. buro9+5l[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:43:27
>>0xffff+be
I leave few things on Windows as Microsoft have opinions, and then OSQuery gives IT admins opinions.

I prefer as few outside opinions on what I run as possible, so I only leave Chrome and VSCode in Windows and everything else is in Linux.

I had run Linux for years, but whilst I still have Linux on desktop machines I leave Windows on my laptop as it truly gives me 8-9h battery life and Linux only gives me a matter of a few hours tops.

11. V1ndaa+rm[view] [source] 2023-06-27 17:51:39
>>buro9+(OP)
> Windows power management (and that beautiful laptop battery life)

Is that sarcasm? I never had good battery life on a laptop running Windows. Linux has always been superior to me in that regard (maybe if nvidia optimus is at play?).

replies(1): >>plonk+tw
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12. 0xffff+tm[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:51:43
>>tut-ur+4g
Wow, and I thought my agency IT was hostile...
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13. dekhn+Hm[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:53:08
>>OJFord+ib
Literally the first page Google shows for [ install wsl on windows ] is the canonical documentation which is trivial to follow.

Don't touch the registry.

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14. dmitry+Jm[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:53:11
>>trelan+Lj
> sweet battery life

Linux has never been this, and likely never will be. On any hardware supported fully by both, Windows will always have better battery life. Back when I was a thinkpad user, i'd literally live in a vmware workstation linux VM on windows, and THIS had better battery life than linux natively on the same thinkpad.

replies(8): >>bombel+ht >>pleb_n+st >>vladva+Iu >>onesht+hy >>WarOnP+IC >>trelan+821 >>Jnr+Rw2 >>mdhen+bC2
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15. xen2xe+Ym[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:54:23
>>OJFord+ib
Everything is easier on Windows 11. If you have 10 it's all harder and less built in, and some features don't work at all
replies(1): >>OJFord+eL
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16. wholin+un[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 17:56:19
>>tut-ur+4g
What security person in their right mind would remove firefox as a security threat? In my opinion you can make firefox drastically more secure with adblock and tracking blocker addons and better default settings. You'd have to be totally unconcerned with actual security to force everyone into edge. Or maybe there are some draconian incentives at big-corp's that I haven't seen yet.
replies(1): >>vladva+vv
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17. bombel+ht[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:24:16
>>dmitry+Jm
I came to assume the battery only exists to act as an uninterruptible power supply as I travel to the next power outlet ;)

It feels like over the past 10y Linux only went from 2h to 3h of battery life. While MacBook went from 3h to 13h.

replies(3): >>captn3+wy >>monsie+cF >>diffeo+jE2
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18. pleb_n+st[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:24:46
>>dmitry+Jm
I had a Lenovo p15 running fedora for a while and got 6 to 8 hours battery life whilst working which was approx. the same as the original OEM windows install. So it might be a case by case situation.
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19. vladva+Iu[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:31:08
>>dmitry+Jm
I don't know what you mean by "supported", but the HP EliteBook 845 G8 (amd 5650u) I'm typing this on has noticeably better battery life under Linux than Windows. Ditto for its cousin with an 11th gen i7. They get around 5-6 hours on Linux, and around 4 on Windows. Windows also likes to spin those fans while sitting around doing nothing.

Oh, HP recommends Windows 11 (tm) (r) (c). Both worked 100% from day 1 on Linux. But both laptops had issues during the first year under windows (no webcam on the amd, boken external screen output on the intel), so maybe they don't qualify as "supported by both".

replies(2): >>double+oP >>Bizarr+Qe7
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20. vladva+vv[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:35:00
>>wholin+un
They wouldn't remove it "as a security threat" as such. They'd remove it because it's not part of the vetted applications list.
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21. plonk+tw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:38:39
>>V1ndaa+rm
> maybe if nvidia optimus is at play?

In this case Windows is the only sane choice (at least based on my experience from 2 years ago).

After a lot of reading random docs, I got to a point where I could stop the GPU from eating the battery doing nothing, but I could only disable/enable it by logging out then in. It was either no GPU at all or a GPU drawing maximum power, no in-between.

Maybe Nvidia's latest code releases will help with that?

replies(1): >>NGRhod+Sz
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22. onesht+hy[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:46:31
>>dmitry+Jm
> Linux has never been this, and likely never will be.

Chromebook and Android works very well. They use Linux kernel.

replies(1): >>dmitry+zA
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23. captn3+wy[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:47:14
>>bombel+ht
You’re comparing an OS with a specific device. In the union case (Asahi Linux on MacBook), the battery life is much higher than 3h. Not yet 13, but soon should be close.
replies(1): >>bombel+rJ
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24. NGRhod+Sz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:54:51
>>plonk+tw
I've only had an Nvidia GPU laptop for 2 years so no experience of using older series of drivers, but Nvidia's 5xx series of drivers work great on my T460s running the latest Mint, drivers installed using the Ubuntu driver tool. Secure boot works out of the box, prime render offload works without a hitch (and no need to log in/out to switch GPUs), battery life is ballpark similar to Windows.
replies(1): >>plonk+lL
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25. dmitry+zA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:58:34
>>onesht+hy
Neither uses the GNU userspace, which is what people mean by "linux"
replies(1): >>oynqr+5I
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26. WarOnP+IC[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:09:36
>>dmitry+Jm
It should be noted that Lenovo's power management software (pre Win10) played a big part in users' happy battery experiences.
27. MSFT_E+wE[view] [source] 2023-06-27 19:20:42
>>buro9+(OP)
I really don't get this battery life complaint.

What kind of system are you running?

On my thinkpad, arch install squeezes 9 hours after 7 years of use.

On a dell XPS I'd get about 13 hours with the gpu disabled and display set to 1440p instead of 4k. Sure you might say "but I need my GPU and 4k 15'' display" to which I reply eh maybe but I don't.

replies(2): >>oefnak+pK >>heleni+z41
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28. monsie+cF[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:24:48
>>bombel+ht
This is what i experienced as well. 3h on light battery use. After having read every how-tos and used tlp, auto-cpufreq, powertop, ...

I hate to say it, but, for me, it is the price to pay to not have to deal with Windows anymore. I'm on Ubuntu right now, but have tried with other distros in the past. YMMV.

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29. oynqr+5I[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:42:10
>>dmitry+zA
So where does that leave Alpine?
replies(1): >>remix2+gO
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30. bombel+rJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:49:33
>>captn3+wy
Let's hope it will be close. MacBook has twice the battery capacity as a run of the mill thinkpad. So 6h of battery would be the default I expect. More than that, and I will be impressed.

Note that I have been using Linux for 20y. And I fully accept the short battery life in exchange of the tooling and freedom I get with Linux.

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31. oefnak+pK[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:53:46
>>MSFT_E+wE
Incredible. Can you post your configuration? On my XPS15 that's about 4 or 5 years old, I can get max 2.5 hours with the GPU disabled and 1920×1080 resolution.
replies(1): >>MSFT_E+ye3
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32. OJFord+eL[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:57:13
>>xen2xe+Ym
It is 10 yes. I glossed over a few steps as 'updated and restarted' - I actually spent an entire day trying to enable secure boot and (as required in order to) upgrade to 11 and then recovering from fearing I'd bricked it. (GPU doesn't support it, I now think (beforehand had no idea that even might be an issue). Motherboard then wouldn't revert to integrated graphics even with the card removed.)

I really can't fathom how any technically-minded professional gets anything done with Windows - nevermind SEs - it just feels constantly in the way. And I'm not a die-hard Linux (nor Apple) fanatic, I grew up with Windows, it got me into 'computers'. It just seems like an uncontrollable (as in literally, operator not in control) mess compared even to macOS to me now.

(I also really wanted to like it coming back to it - I thought with WSL surely that was going to take the Unixy strength of macOS and far supersede it as a when-I-can't-use-Linux device. But so far, egh, nevermind that I think the hardware's great, I think I'd pay the Apple tax just for the OS.)

Maybe I'll try again to upgrade if the integrated graphics support it.

replies(2): >>FireBe+ef1 >>imkehn+112
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33. plonk+lL[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 19:57:42
>>NGRhod+Sz
My experience was on a Dell XPS 15 from ~2018, up to Ubuntu 20.04. Maybe they got better just when I switched to macOS. :)
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34. remix2+gO[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 20:12:43
>>oynqr+5I
s/GNU/Freedesktop/
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35. double+oP[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 20:20:58
>>vladva+Iu
Support is a funny term anymore. Who is supporting it?

I have a pair of ASUS VivoBooks that BSOD on Windows every third or so boot with the NVMe they shipped with. That is the supported, manufacturer shipped OS.

On any Linux distro I've installed they run without issues. They also pass any diagnostic I have tried.

Battery life wise, some laptops I have get better battery life on a Windows install, and some get better battery life on a Linux install. Very hit and miss here.

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36. trelan+821[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 21:28:34
>>dmitry+Jm
> On any hardware supported fully by both

This hardware does not exist, or at least it's exceedingly rare. something most folks miss is that the OS supports the hardware (though for Windows it's more the drivers than the OS, but I digress), but equally (and perhaps moreso) the hardware supports the OS.

Modern hardware is full of code (almost always proprietary), in ACPI, in EFI, in the EC, in all the devices. You cannot (without significant engineering effort) make the hardware support both OSes equally.

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37. heleni+z41[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 21:42:43
>>MSFT_E+wE
My ThinkPad running linux gets absolutely fantastic battery life with the exception that when I close it and put it in my backpack, I have about a 25% chance of discovering later that, while closed, it turned the screen on and and ran the fans at full speed to kill the battery because it was, I don't know... bored of being in a bag?
replies(2): >>realit+bZ1 >>MSFT_E+5f3
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38. Aerbil+Sc1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 22:30:37
>>OJFord+ib
I’ve found running a VM easier than WINE, FYI. LookingGlass?
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39. FireBe+ef1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 22:44:42
>>OJFord+eL
You blame Windows for all these issues around Secure Boot, then you need to be equally annoyed at Apple for how "not easy" it is to run Linux on a Mac with a T2 security chip and disabling System Integrity Protection...
replies(1): >>OJFord+Hl1
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40. OJFord+Hl1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 23:27:06
>>FireBe+ef1
I wasn't blaming Windows for it being difficult as such, though for requiring it I suppose.

Macs ship with SIP enabled and it's easy to disable, I don't know what the (comparable) issue is there?

Again, not that I'm at all an Apple/Mac fanboy, I've had one personal Apple device (2013 Air) and a couple of work MBPs since. If anything macOS could be credited with moving me to Linux. Before it I only really knew Windows, but now I'd say 'Linux is what you make of it, macOS is just about manageable, and Windows is what it is'.

replies(1): >>FireBe+nu1
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41. FireBe+nu1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 00:28:53
>>OJFord+Hl1
> Macs ship with SIP enabled and it's easy to disable, I don't know what the (comparable) issue is there?

I generally use a Mac too, connected to Linux systems, but from the last time I disabled Secure Boot on a PC, the process was press F2 for Setup, go to the System tab in the BIOS, and uncheck Secure Boot, Save.

It's not particularly harder than a Mac: Restart in Recovery Mode, Launch a terminal, `csrutil disable`, Reboot.

> though for requiring it I suppose

Just like Mac "requires" it? I guess I just don't see how this is a "Windows sucks compared to Mac, let alone Linux" thing.

replies(1): >>OJFord+0o2
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42. realit+bZ1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 05:16:13
>>heleni+z41
My work ThinkPad running Windows has exactly the same problem. Modern Standby I’m told.
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43. imkehn+112[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 05:36:51
>>OJFord+eL
During the last 10 years or so I’ve gradually been using less and less Windows. Used to do everything on Windows - now at home, it’s only for gaming and I’ve been dabbling with proton to hop off the sinking ship. Due to some proprietary windows tied software, I have to use dualboot at work. All development work is and has been done on Linux for a good while.

Don’t want to support WSL - due Microsoft being Microsoft, mediocrity and smoke and mirrors to leech on your telemetry. Am waiting anxiously for the moment to cut off the final ties with Microsoft OS.

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44. raxxor+k92[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 06:50:31
>>tut-ur+4g
There is a portable version of Firefox that so far seems to run everywhere. The benefits you get with a portable browser are quite amazing.

Of course, that limits system integration, but you can still register it as a default browser.

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45. OJFord+0o2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 09:13:52
>>FireBe+nu1
I was trying to turn it on, not off, because it was required for Windows 11 upgrade. That involves going into the BIOS, being perplexed by key generation options and obscure acronyms, trying my best, ending up with an unbootable computer, and having to remove CMOS battery and short a couple of jumper pins to reset the BIOS (battery pull alone was insufficient).

A non-technical user could disable SIP, though they'd never need to; good luck to them upgrading to Windows 11.

Newly requiring it on upgrade when it's hard to do and hardware may be incompatible anyway isn't great IMO. It's not really protecting anyone from anything, because it just leaves them unprotected in exactly the same way on the older OS. As long as they don't brick it trying.

replies(1): >>xen2xe+7I4
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46. Jnr+Rw2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 10:42:50
>>dmitry+Jm
That is not true. Maybe it is your experience but it is not universal. And you have to look at that particular device you used. Depending on the distro you most likely will have to do additional configuration to enable different power saving features on Linux.

From the Thinkpads I have seen and used (last one in 2023) I haven't yet seen one that is "fully supported" out of the box on Linux and all of them required some degree of tinkering.

By the way Arch wiki has a nice overview on configuring power saving properly, in case you ever need it in the future: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management

replies(1): >>trelan+OBi
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47. mdhen+bC2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 11:36:34
>>dmitry+Jm
It's actually gotten a lot better in the last 3 or so years. Especially with power-profiles-daemon. I think it's pretty much at par with windows at this point. Assuming you are running an up to date kernel.
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48. diffeo+jE2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 11:53:56
>>bombel+ht
Battery life of hackintoshes never was that impressive or was it? But if you want apples to oranges instead, then even in its very basic, hacky state linux on that macbook gets 8-10 hours:

https://twitter.com/AsahiLinux/status/1500039345142923269?la...

replies(1): >>bombel+1w3
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49. MSFT_E+ye3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 14:55:24
>>oefnak+pK
I didn't do anything special.Years ago the xps15 had some issues installing linux, there was a git repo with a special post install script to get the drivers sorted. Dell fan control can be weird but this was many years ago at this point.

I have a normal ubuntu install, I use the i3wm to reduce general load. Resolution set to 1440p with xrandr, no scale adjustments. GPU disabled, totally on intel graphics.

My xps is about 4.5 years old right now, I have replaced the battery when it started to swell slightly, the replacement was salvaged from another and even worse, so after a year I put the original battery back in.

I honestly think the biggest thing is a tiling wm. Any time I go from full gnome to i3wm, my battery life gets an instant 3 hour bonus.

Big ole note, because of the age and battery degradation, i can squeeze about 6-7 hours out of with if I limit myself to a single firefox window and text editors. When it was brand new, 13 hours of normal use was totally doable.

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50. MSFT_E+5f3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 14:58:00
>>heleni+z41
I've noticed once in a blue moon, my thinkpad will get the screen state reversed if I close and open it too fast, interrupting the standby sequence. I wonder if its bouncing open in the bag?

Mine's a 4th gen X1 carbon with an ancient Antergos install from 2016 that I converted to normal arch after they closed the project. i3wm, probably some thinkpad specific tweaks from the arch wiki but the machine is so damn stable I rarely think about it.

replies(1): >>heleni+sL4
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51. bombel+1w3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 16:03:35
>>diffeo+jE2
That's pretty good indeed! I don't like the keyboard layout (I want my delete key!). But that's a minor inconvenience compared to how good the machine appears to run Linux.
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52. xen2xe+7I4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 21:44:12
>>OJFord+0o2
If you needed key generation to install Windows 11 you did it wrong? I know you do for new Linux kernels and things, but why for Windows 11?
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53. heleni+sL4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 22:02:54
>>MSFT_E+5f3
> I wonder if its bouncing open in the bag?

Definitely not physically possible in my bag. I've chalked it up to the fact that linux desktop environments are just a total hodgepodge of weird components with unclear responsibility boundaries that couldn't possibly handle all the edge cases properly when you stick them all together. This leads to stuff like the fact that if I suspend my laptop with an external monitor connected, but then un-suspend it without that external monitor connected, I'm often presented with a lock screen that I can't actually interact with, forcing me to either seek out a monitor or switch over to text console to log in and kill my session.

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54. Bizarr+Qe7[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-29 16:33:27
>>vladva+Iu
I have a lenovo laptop that gets 4-5 hours battery life on Windows and about 70 minutes on Fedora Linux.

I suspect part of it is due to some incompatibility with the nouveau graphics driver, but it's not been a big enough problem that I had to solve it yet.

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55. trelan+OBi[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-07-02 22:29:35
>>Jnr+Rw2
> Thinkpads I have seen and used (last one in 2023) I haven't yet seen one that is "fully supported" out of the box on Linux and all of them required some degree of tinkering.

Yes, that is my limited experience with Thinkpad as well.

This don't ship with Linux and are not Linux Hardware. They're Windows hardware.

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