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[parent] [thread] 47 comments
1. llimos+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-06-27 13:34:52
When did we move to a "do whatever you think you can get away with" model of society?

Maybe I'm naive but I think there used to be at least a modicum of self-restraint on this kind of thing. Sure, people always tried to make as much money as possible, but there used to be some limit somewhere - not because you'll get caught but because c'mon, we just don't do that! That seems to have now been totally lost.

replies(18): >>light_+T >>dylan6+g1 >>Pragma+C1 >>jasonl+W1 >>aaomid+a2 >>mytail+r2 >>saiya-+J2 >>Velila+W2 >>bee_ri+o5 >>huijze+S7 >>JustBr+hc >>seneca+ce >>paxys+ln >>dayvid+kq >>codexb+rF >>arbitr+jq1 >>Camero+rD1 >>lmm+FP1
2. light_+T[view] [source] 2023-06-27 13:38:34
>>llimos+(OP)
Because the cost of fraud is far too low and it's now factored into business plans. And no executive at FedEx will go to jail for this. When you can break the law for less than the profits you get for breaking the law, that's just got business sense.
replies(1): >>IE6+Od
3. dylan6+g1[view] [source] 2023-06-27 13:40:08
>>llimos+(OP)
>When did we move to a "do whatever you think you can get away with" model of society?

When were we not there?

replies(1): >>willci+Q3
4. Pragma+C1[view] [source] 2023-06-27 13:41:34
>>llimos+(OP)
> When did we move to a "do whatever you think you can get away with" model of society?

If you judge society by the worst headlines and stories from social media then it’s going to seem very bad

You have to consider that news and social media only talk about the extreme stories. It’s not representative of normal

replies(2): >>mister+R3 >>omnigl+1l
5. jasonl+W1[view] [source] 2023-06-27 13:42:56
>>llimos+(OP)
It’s always been this way. Hell, the entire tech industry is this way. No one is innocent, and society is generally fine with it. What might be new is the fact that you hear so much more about it now because of the internet. What was once just local news before is now easily amplified.

Society hasn’t so much as changed as we’ve become more aware of all of the issues. And to top it all off, a lot of people want to go back to that again. Because ignorance is bliss.

replies(1): >>aaomid+A2
6. aaomid+a2[view] [source] 2023-06-27 13:43:43
>>llimos+(OP)
I think we were here for a lot of time in a lot of industries, but then specific people bring it to other industries.

Elon brought this to tech in an extreme way.

This problem won’t be solved until CEOs and execs are able to take over behind limited liability.

7. mytail+r2[view] [source] 2023-06-27 13:44:36
>>llimos+(OP)
There was never restraint and it used to be much worse. This is why the large body of laws and regulations we have today came into being.

Edit:

Also, in the West society in general is one of abundance with people housed, clothed and educated in school from birth, which IMHO removes a lot of incentives for scams and fraud.

But it used to be (and still is in some countries) that most people were born with nothing in a very tough environment and had to fight just to eat every day. The world of Charles Dickens was real.

replies(3): >>throwa+Y2 >>whimsi+Tn >>pbhjpb+ZJ
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8. aaomid+A2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 13:44:59
>>jasonl+W1
It definitely wasn’t always this way:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_capitalism

Not that I agree with welfare capitalism, I think it’s an unstable position and greed would always kill it. But let’s not forget that for some people, the past was definitely better than the present when it came to some economic matters. Note: I’m not excusing or wanting the bigotry of the past.

replies(1): >>jasonl+8g
9. saiya-+J2[view] [source] 2023-06-27 13:45:27
>>llimos+(OP)
I think you are painting past very nicely, ie DuPont has been knowingly contaminating whole world since 80s at least. That's my childhood years, for sure I wasn't aware of anything similar happening. That doesn't mean it wasn't, news reel was setup differently these days. In 3rd world countries this would not raise eyebrows at all, there were (and still are) big issues around exactly this with used cars in Eastern Europe.

People got addicted to ever more shocking news, I guess 9/11 in the west helped with that. Once you burn your receptors and they go back to flatline, the next kick needs to be a bit stronger to keep people engaged, and next one even more so. So just consuming news is a never ending progression of bad, amoral and over time progressively worse stuff.

10. Velila+W2[view] [source] 2023-06-27 13:46:20
>>llimos+(OP)
It was always like that. At all points throughout history. So law makers put in laws and regulations that had punitive fines on the conduct for businesses. 49 U.S.C § 32703, the law that makes federal odometer fraud a crime, was passed in October 1972 and had a $10,000 fine for screwing with an odometer. If inflation kept up with the punishment it'd be $71,897.64 today. But time passes, fine amounts don't get touched, and eventually it's profitable on the whole to do it. $10,000 if you get caught? That's less than the profit of the deal, so who cares? The conduct resumes.
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11. throwa+Y2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 13:46:36
>>mytail+r2
It’s also why funding our institutions and fighting to keep them honest is so damn important. Regulation is insufficient without enforcement.
replies(1): >>betaby+Z4
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12. willci+Q3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 13:50:04
>>dylan6+g1
Lots of little girls and boys are taught that and end up somewhere screaming "but that's not fair!" in the rain.
replies(1): >>dylan6+2o
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13. mister+R3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 13:50:06
>>Pragma+C1
What's normal isn't all that matters though, and the broad consequences of the behavior of the capitalist class are starting to creep quite deeply into what's normal for a lot of middle and lower class people.

Personally, I would like that to be countered much more like how they do things in China. Making an example of some bad apples can be very persuasive.

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14. betaby+Z4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 13:55:16
>>throwa+Y2
But that's precisely the problem! Every aspect of the life is over regulated and smaller bushiness are kneecapped On other side big companies can get away with whatever. At some states florist is a regulated profession and requires more hours of training than for police.

"For my friends everything, for my enemies the law".

replies(4): >>bentco+59 >>spacem+Rg >>cde-v+fk >>Larrik+jk
15. bee_ri+o5[view] [source] 2023-06-27 13:56:36
>>llimos+(OP)
When you came, you said to me as follows : “I will give Gimil-Sin (when he comes) fine quality copper ingots.” You left then but you did not do what you promised me. You put ingots which were not good before my messenger (Sit-Sin) and said: “If you want to take them, take them; if you do not want to take them, go away!”

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/537889-ol...

16. huijze+S7[view] [source] 2023-06-27 14:06:47
>>llimos+(OP)
> When did we move to a "do whatever you think you can get away with" model of society?

In the late 1980s, Koch Industries stole millions of crude oil each year by instructing their employees to always measure in a way that benefited Koch Industries [1].

[1]: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/07/22/kochland-...

replies(1): >>Humbly+6d
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17. bentco+59[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 14:11:52
>>betaby+Z4
> and requires more hours of training than for police.

Citation? Best I could find is that Louisiana regulates floristry but doesn't mandate education (you need to take an exam). As for taking more hours of training than police I think you are conflating that fact in your head with this: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/cosmetologists-police-trai...

Besides, I'm not sure how you got here in a thread about how Fedex, a "big compan[y] [which] can get away with whatever" getting caught scamming people.

replies(1): >>betaby+pf
18. JustBr+hc[view] [source] 2023-06-27 14:24:27
>>llimos+(OP)
Honestly I'd lean towards naive.

If anything, suspect on a national / global scale there's far more capacity for society to hold people and organizations accountable than any time in history.

"Accept certain inalienable truths: Prices will rise. Politicians will philander. You, too, will get old. And when you do, you'll fantasize that when you were young, prices were reasonable, politicians were noble and children respected their elders." - Wear Sunscreen

replies(1): >>tacoca+1q1
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19. Humbly+6d[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 14:27:06
>>huijze+S7
And they used the profits from that to nearly completely corrupt our government.
replies(1): >>short_+ew
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20. IE6+Od[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 14:29:03
>>light_+T
> the cost of fraud is far too low > no executive will go to jail for this

This seems to be the pervasive trend

21. seneca+ce[view] [source] 2023-06-27 14:30:25
>>llimos+(OP)
The US had golden years after World War 2. We had abundance, effective institutions, and high trust. We've been slowly coming off of that high for a while, and are returning to what is arguably a more typical state. Our institutions are crumbling, and societal trust is nose diving. Abundance still has a ways to go though.
replies(1): >>justap+2s
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22. betaby+pf[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 14:35:26
>>bentco+59
> Citation?

https://www.on.jobbank.gc.ca/marketreport/requirements/24582...

Florist, regulated in QC, training is ~1K hours.

https://www.quebec.ca/en/government/quebec-at-a-glance/first...

training is also ~1K hours.

> Besides, I'm not sure how you got here in a thread about how Fedex, a "big compan[y] [which] can get away with whatever" getting caught scamming people.

Car sales (any many other things) are heavily regulated where I live. Also it seems regulations are not enforced if one is 'too big to fall'.

replies(2): >>bentle+Rn >>bentco+Xo
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23. jasonl+8g[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 14:37:52
>>aaomid+A2
That seems much more limited than what I was talking about.

"When did we move to a "do whatever you think you can get away with" model of society?

That's what I was talking about, and it's much broader than what's covered by welfare capitalism.

> But let’s not forget that for some people, the past was definitely better than the present

We are talking about society as a whole. And "do whatever you think you can get away with" implies that it will be better for some people. Just because life it great doesn't mean people aren't doing whatever they think they can get away with. Just because the past was better doesn't change my assertion.

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24. spacem+Rg[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 14:40:58
>>betaby+Z4
Fines are just the cost of doing business and are priced in. Executive crime enforcement and resulting jail time is sorely needed. And not in luxury prisons, but in real prisons where the plebs go. Fines do nothing.

One can dream, the rich at the top write all the rules. It’s not like Joe Average is the one taking golf trips with Supreme Court justices and buying lobbyists to do their dirty work.

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25. cde-v+fk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 14:53:11
>>betaby+Z4
Stop ignoring the class war and start fighting it.
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26. Larrik+jk[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 14:53:45
>>betaby+Z4
That seems like an issue regulating the police and not an issue with opening up a florist business.
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27. omnigl+1l[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 14:56:17
>>Pragma+C1
The measure of a society is how it treats its weakest members.

These headlines are showing that the class of "weakest members" has grown to include most of the population.

A representative of "normal" criminals demonatrates they are free to operate with healthy profit margins.

28. paxys+ln[view] [source] 2023-06-27 15:06:57
>>llimos+(OP)
When people committing these crimes could start hiding behind the safety of a "corporation".
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29. bentle+Rn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 15:09:04
>>betaby+pf
I just clicked through that link you provided (jobbank.gc.ca) and there's nothing that says florists need "1k hours" of training. It's unclear that they even need to be licensed at all. I also Googled for "license quebec florist" and didn't get any meaningful results.[1]

Can you provide better citation, or point explicitly to the licensing requirements?

[1] https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=license+f...

replies(1): >>realo+Qy
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30. whimsi+Tn[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 15:09:10
>>mytail+r2
Yes, and we are psychologically biased to think things are getting worse. On this sort of corruption/large scale fraud in the US, it simply is not.
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31. dylan6+2o[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 15:09:45
>>willci+Q3
And quickly realize they were lied to when they were taught things were fair to begin with, which reading between the lines argues that it wasn't fair to begin with. All of which to say, you just reiterated my point.
replies(1): >>willci+Qw
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32. bentco+Xo[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 15:13:30
>>betaby+pf
> https://www.on.jobbank.gc.ca/marketreport/requirements/24582...

> Florist, regulated in QC, training is ~1K hours.

Is it? That page is extremely vague and doesn't seem to be specific to study hours or even education requirements.

Floristry doesn't seem to be on the list of regulated professions in Quebec: https://www.quebec.ca/emploi3/metiers-professions/metiers-re..., but I may have missed it.

replies(1): >>betaby+Oy
33. dayvid+kq[view] [source] 2023-06-27 15:18:58
>>llimos+(OP)
That's existed for a long time. It's just easier to catch people nowadays.
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34. justap+2s[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 15:25:35
>>seneca+ce
> We had abundance, effective institutions, and high trust

Yes! Everyone was a millionaire, law was perfect, no intuitions were abusing their powers, no government agencies ran experiments on unsuspecting citizens, everyone was friendly, no one stole anything, no corporation ever lied to the public about dangers of their products, no one was killed, etc! Good old days!

Sarcasm aside, there were things that were better, but also huge amount of things was way worse.

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35. short_+ew[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 15:44:17
>>Humbly+6d
If you think the entirety of corruption in the US is recent and tied to a specific family you need to switch to a media source with more nuance.
replies(1): >>Humbly+s04
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36. willci+Qw[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 15:47:49
>>dylan6+2o
I'm agreeing with you, the problem is we teach them it is fair and a lot of people don't get the memo.
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37. betaby+Oy[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 15:57:55
>>bentco+Xo
De-facto florists in QC need Certificat d'aptitude professionnelle

Link in french shows 1K hours https://ecole-metiers-horticulture.cssdm.gouv.qc.ca/programm... to obtain one.

replies(1): >>halost+6q1
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38. realo+Qy[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 15:58:01
>>bentle+Rn
Well... I can understand why quite a bit of specialized knowledge would be needed. You have to know your flowers well, know how to operate the refrigeration machinery, what flower keeps at which temperature, what to do if your flowers seem sick etc etc...

Although a university degree "may be required by some employers ", I find this a bit much, however.

39. codexb+rF[view] [source] 2023-06-27 16:25:54
>>llimos+(OP)
Are you kidding? It used to be common knowledge that virtually every used car dealer was committing some sort of odometer or other fraud just 25-30 years ago. The advent of anti-tampering devices in cars, manufacturer certified pre-owned, carfax, listing of odometer values on registrations and insurance forms, and hefty fines (and even prison) for dealer fraud cut down on that.
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40. pbhjpb+ZJ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 16:43:42
>>mytail+r2
>There was never restraint and it used to be much worse. //

I think maybe, in the immediate past in the West it was better.

We still lived and worked more locally, standing with neighbours mattered; corporations had less power than governments; governments were less able to manipulate their citizens, perhaps.

Politicians seem to have learnt to give just enough to quell the riots and pervert the system for maximum financial gain for those who control them; spreading losses across all those being exploited. The UK's conservative government stole something like £30B using preferential contracts in just two areas (IT, PPE supply) during the pandemic.

In the recent past it seems highly unlikely that someone sacked twice for lying, Alexander Boris de Pfeffle Johnson, would get a job as an MP, nevermind becoming PM. In the past it would be inconscionable, now the party seems to shrug and say 'he brings in a lot of a Russian campaign money, lets make him PM'.

In the UK there has been a systematic removal of scrutiny and oversight: choosing BBC management, choosing the civil service boss (it was previously always under open competition), changing the nature of parliamentary oversight, and of course Brexit helps considerably to this end.

I've no doubt it was worse in the middle ages, but considerable doubt it was worse throughout the 20th Century.

replies(1): >>mytail+z61
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41. mytail+z61[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 18:23:57
>>pbhjpb+ZJ
I think that part of the problem with politicians now is not necessarily that they are worse than before but that they cannot hide anything anymore and that scrutiny is total.

Before many things were kept secret or could at least be kept out of the press. Now everything is photographed and filmed, and politicians have the bad habit of using messaging apps instead of making quiet phone calls or simply of having a private chat and so they leave plenty of incriminating evidence in writing.

replies(1): >>xp84+te4
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42. tacoca+1q1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 20:04:20
>>JustBr+hc
There is so much effort to distort history and the reporting of current events.

If you don't learn history, and then lso not pay attention to what's happening around you, of course you will pine for the good old days when it was easier to control the narrative.

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43. halost+6q1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-27 20:04:53
>>betaby+Oy
Your claim is untrue (that such a certificate is required for florists). The link you provided is to a vocational training program for people who want to specialize in floristry (because they want to open a business). I have a friend here in Ontario who recently went through a similar program for landscaping. It was not required, but it opened a number of job opportunities that would not have been available to them otherwise.

There are only a few jobs which have mandatory qualifications (left column in the link below) and a larger number of jobs which have voluntary qualification courses. There may be secondary requirements (e.g., to work as a butcher and get insurance, your employees must have the voluntary qualification certificate), but these are not regulated professions the way you have been incorrectly claiming on this thread.

https://www.emploiquebec.gouv.qc.ca/citoyens/developper-et-f...

44. arbitr+jq1[view] [source] 2023-06-27 20:05:46
>>llimos+(OP)
It's still like this.

Women and minorities get targeted by this sort of stuff all the time.

45. Camero+rD1[view] [source] 2023-06-27 21:16:11
>>llimos+(OP)
Have you heard of Cecil Rhodes?
46. lmm+FP1[view] [source] 2023-06-27 22:26:38
>>llimos+(OP)
When our shared cultural identity broke down, which I think was maybe late-'90s / early-'00s? "American" used to be practically an ethnicity. Now everyone knows their neighbour isn't like them and doesn't have the same values as them - so you might as well screw them for all they're worth.
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47. Humbly+s04[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 15:28:35
>>short_+ew
Oh, there's a whole list of Right wing nut job orgs. The dominionists who think it's their god given right to rule. The CNP, who think not enough white babies being born. Just to name a couple. They all dump money into the government.
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48. xp84+te4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-06-28 16:26:20
>>mytail+z61
I like your take. The part that's frustrating/interesting is, you would think with all that increased transparency, they would be at least less brazen in their corruption.

It certainly could be that despite the appearances being better in say, 1950-2000, that actual corruption was equal or worse, and most of it went undetected and unpunished!

But my take is that it wasn't as bad, because shame used to exist. A politician would "resign in disgrace" when caught in a medium-to-large scandal (even one that seemed technically irrelevant to their responsibilities, like 'sex scandals'). And he would stay out of public life thereafter, out of shame, knowing he couldn't run for office again and win because of their shameful past. Compare Richard Nixon vs. Bill Clinton.

That's what changed. Now it doesn't matter how shameful and corrupt your conduct was, you just either deny or answer with whataboutism towards the other party's worst sins, and carry on, and for some reason voters are consistently fine with this!

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