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1. kortex+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-05-18 15:53:23
I skimmed the article and I feel like nothing really answers the question to "How to quit cars", aside from pricing parking better. Personally, I'd love to be able to rely on cars less. They are kind of the epitome of tragedy of the commons. But as a lifelong suburbanite with 2 cars in a 2-person household, this is what I'd have to see to quit cars:

- Ability to get a vehicle on-demand (say within 5-10 minutes) 24/7/365, anywhere in Upstate NY, from cities to boonies.

- That vehicle would need to allow me to transport large goods, bulky goods (to an extent), lumber <6', flammable solvents

- also needs to accomodate 2 medium dogs

- I'd need dedicated bike lanes to the nearby shops and groceries before I could even attempt to use that as an option. There's stores only a few miles from me but the roads to get there are treacherous

There's more but those are the bare minimums, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

replies(3): >>geff82+l1 >>matsem+Ou >>vlunkr+wg1
2. geff82+l1[view] [source] 2023-05-18 15:58:04
>>kortex+(OP)
I think the main problem is how American cities are built: they are not intended to be walkable (the same is true for some modern European suburbs). Compare this with European city centers: having a car there is not a benefit, but a liability. You can get around mega cities such as Paris without having a car (taking a taxi for the 2 occasions a months where you'd need one). I recently visited Milan: we parked the car and then did not need it again once - despite having little kids. Why? Classic European cities are dense. They were built in a time where "walking" was the main means of transportation. And now that policies and opinions change, this older style of building gets fashionable again.
replies(1): >>bombca+S62
3. matsem+Ou[view] [source] 2023-05-18 17:57:16
>>kortex+(OP)
You can't have that, and also expect to live in a sparsely populated suburb.

I live in a dense city. I have a grocery store next door. I have car sharing cars in my street I can rent. This is feasible, because we're so many people within a few minutes walk. In a suburb this is impossible. Would be far too few people per shop or car.

You're kinda part of the problem talked about in an other comment here: you can't even visualize how things could be different. Basically you could only give up your car if you could live exactly as before..

But why can't your lumber get delivered? Do you need a car with huge dimensions just for the off chance you one time the next five years need to carry something big? Why not then rent something for the occasion?

Why do you constantly need to drive your dogs? Again, the reason is probably rooted in a car centric society. The solution isn't to fix all your needs, just without owning a car. The solution would be to make you able to do your hobbies and live your life without the gigantic sprawl.

replies(3): >>Utopia+ZL >>goda90+ke1 >>kortex+tH2
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4. Utopia+ZL[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-18 19:19:03
>>matsem+Ou
I don't think it's impossible, but being in the suburbs makes it an uphill battle. Most suburbs in the United States are built very very intentionally to accomodate car and discourage other modes of transportation. Cul-de-sacs and winding roads only make sense with cars. The logistics of having a bus serve an area like that don't make sense, and even walking these winding, dead-end streets is a much bigger chore than, say, walking on relatively straight streets that try to connect point A to point B efficiently.

That said, I currently find myself in a suburb, and bicycling is actually okay. I can bike out of my neighborhood to reach the main streets, and there are actually pretty decent bike commuting paths once I reach them. If you're wanting to haul things like pets and lumber, recent cargo e-bikes can haul a lot. They're expensive, but they exist if that's a priority for you. I think bicycles can be a pretty decent option for people in the suburbs, at least sometimes. Plus, bikes are just fun!

That said, using my car less is a big goal for me, so I sometimes take the less convenient option. My longterm goal is to find a way to leave the suburbs and live in a city, though, so I can be much less card-dependent.

replies(4): >>bluGil+Qe1 >>bombca+7f1 >>antice+vj2 >>kortex+VI2
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5. goda90+ke1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-18 21:43:24
>>matsem+Ou
Dedicated bike lanes are totally feasible in a sparsely populated suburb. After all, much larger and more expensive car lanes are already in place. The main problem is that city planners don't even think about it.

Recently there's been a surge of 5-over-1 apartment complexes replacing old businesses and houses along my suburb's main road. Great, more dense housing, that's good. The main road has painted bike lanes in the middle of town, and dedicated multi-use paths further out in each direction. For some of these complexes, they had to tear up the road and sidewalk to add safe entrances. Not only did they NOT add more multi-use paths, but they actually approved the buildings to be closer to the road than ordinances typically allow, making a multi-use path unlikely to ever be put in.

replies(1): >>bombca+y62
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6. bluGil+Qe1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-18 21:46:33
>>Utopia+ZL
That is the real problem. Suburbs are mostly dense enough to support good transit, but you can't get good transit into cul-de-sacs. The bus takes too long getting down each one, and if you live in the next one it is a waste of time going down it - while if you do live down that one it has to because you don't live in walking distance of a road they can get down. No cul-de-sac alone has enough people to support the bus.

A subway could be dug under everything, but the $$$ are too high. A gondola system could potentially go between houses and so serve a few cul-de-sacs before coming out at a suburban station - this looks like the lowest cost answer, but it still isn't cheap.

replies(1): >>bombca+j62
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7. bombca+7f1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-18 21:47:58
>>Utopia+ZL
Cul-de-sacs are designed to frustrate cars! It is NOT at all hard to make something like that very walker friendly - just add paths for pedestrians and bikes that slip between the homes in strategic points, and now to drive somewhere you have to go around a whole square mile, but to walk it's direct.

And many suburbs in the USA are actually technically their own towns, some older, some younger, and you can walk around just fine if you plan a bit and want to.

After all, if you live in a town of 10k people almost by definition you can walk everywhere that is available.

8. vlunkr+wg1[view] [source] 2023-05-18 21:54:48
>>kortex+(OP)
> tragedy of the commons

This is a great way to put it. Quite often these arguments against cars feel completely blind to reality. We've built our cities and culture around having cars, we can't easily change that. Starting with some small regulations, like having bike lanes everywhere, would go a long ways. I would love to not pay for a second car, and gas, and insurance, but where I leave, it's just not reasonable.

replies(2): >>bombca+W62 >>kortex+JK2
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9. bombca+j62[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-19 04:45:50
>>bluGil+Qe1
You don't need to get into the bag-ends. You just need to let the last mile be walking, and make lots of walking paths that feel like shortcuts.

Then the busses can stay on the straight main roads while all the cars go get lost in the culled sacs, while people walking or on bike have direct paths.

Some studies show people will walk 3/4 of a mile, which is about 15 minutes. That's a "circle" that is 1.5 miles across, which is a an area of about 1132 acres (Ignore that straight roads don't have circles; pretend the "extra" area is support stuff, shops, whatever). 1132 acres of single family housing is 13,000 houses if "close", upwards of 20,000 units if we go to townhomes/rowhouses.

13k dwelling units all within a 3/4 mile walk from the edge; that should support at least one bus.

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10. bombca+y62[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-19 04:48:12
>>goda90+ke1
This is the big part; if the people ask the city to do bike paths, they do them! They're insanely cheap when designing and building a new development; you can put them in the storm water runoff areas, etc.

Most sidewalks you see are set back from the road already, leaving a grass median for snow collection, etc. You can put a bike path in that area, if anyone cares.

replies(1): >>kortex+7K2
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11. bombca+S62[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-19 04:51:00
>>geff82+l1
To be fair to the Europeans who own cars (In Europe, for example, the median national share of car owners was 79 percent [1]) life as a tourist is easy; the entire city is doing everything to make your car-free life work.

And every time I've touristed in Europe it's been great wandering around without a car (the times I've driven the backcountry with a car have been fun, too).

But all the people I've worked with when in Europe have a car (sure, it might be small) and drive when it makes sense, which is often.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-04-17/a-pew-sur...

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12. bombca+W62[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-19 04:51:51
>>vlunkr+wg1
Give every American an e-bike; would cost less than the covid payments and suddenly you'd have a huge demand for bike infra.
replies(2): >>kortex+mL2 >>vlunkr+DR3
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13. antice+vj2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-19 07:01:57
>>Utopia+ZL
> Most suburbs in the United States are built very very intentionally to accomodate car and discourage other modes of transportation. Cul-de-sacs and winding roads only make sense with cars. The logistics of having a bus serve an area like that don't make sense, and even walking these winding, dead-end streets is a much bigger chore than, say, walking on relatively straight streets that try to connect point A to point B efficiently.

Well, one could make an on-demand share taxi/microbus service that serves between those cul-de-sacs and the closest avenue that is served by full size fixed-route scheduled buses.

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14. kortex+tH2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-19 11:06:21
>>matsem+Ou
> Basically you could only give up your car if you could live exactly as before.

You are basically saying, "Why don't you just radically change your lifestyle?" E.g. I need to drive my dogs and partner to my parent's place (which is only across town) once a week for dinner. This is an activity all of us really enjoy. Despite being only a few miles away, the route is not safely walkable/bikeable. Which means: car, either mine or a rideshare. Rideshare service sucks here (because almost everyone drives). Huge chicken and egg problem.

Some of my hobbies involve building stuff. I can and have had wood delivered. It's an $80 charge (or more) for each delivery. That's a huge dent, and means I have to plan every material I need.

I go camping a few times a year. That would be outright impossible without a dedicated vehicle. I could rent, but again, huge cost.

But my most vital hobby revolves around spinning fire props, which involves numerous bulky large objects, heavy fuel dunks, and flammable fuel.

So yeah, pretty much all my hobbies and things I need to do for mental health revolve around car access. But that's kind of what happens when you spend your whole life in an ultra car centric suburb. I can't imagine anything else because I'd have to terraform all of suburban upstate NY to be more like Europe, and that's not happening (not that I don't want to). This is why the car debate is obnoxious: city folks with limited experience are telling folks with totally different lifestyles "have you considered... not?" and it's incredibly patronizing. I know that's not your intent, but that's how it's usually interpreted.

My one hope is for affordable FSD on-demand ride share with a variety of vehicles. Otherwise having a car (two actually) is a mandatory sunk cost for me.

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15. kortex+VI2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-19 11:15:01
>>Utopia+ZL
I actually have it worse, I live directly on a 35mph (where people regularly do 50+) semi-main "stroad". The only nice thing is the fire department is also on this road, so it gets priority plowing. We get semi-trailers and dump trucks on it.

Walking with the dogs the approx 400' to the nearest cul-de-sac is a harrowing affair. Bike riding is so intimidating that my bike hasn't even gone outside in months. Yeah people ride on it but it's way outside my comfort zone.

Pretty much all of suburbia needs to be magically terraformed, for any of these things to be feasible.

> If you're wanting to haul things like pets and lumber, recent cargo e-bikes can haul a lot.

I don't think you realize how big a 3/4 x 48 x 96 is. I can't even fit it in my Forester without ripping it lengthwise and driving with the hatch propped.

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16. kortex+7K2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-19 11:21:48
>>bombca+y62
They absolutely aren't insanely cheap. Folks have been pushing my town for bike lanes for years and it usually gets nowhere. We have like a handful of shitty bike paths and sidewalks that don't actually connect to the important centers.

The main commercial thoroughfare which runs north-south and would be the ideal place for one since it has Walmart, Aldi, Depot, pizza places, etc, doesn't even have a sidewalk. That's how ass-backward this area is designed.

I need to import this whole place into SimCity, bulldoze and redo huge swaths of it.

replies(1): >>bombca+pi3
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17. kortex+JK2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-19 11:26:06
>>vlunkr+wg1
Exactly, and team less-cars is not gonna win folks over with the "well just change your whole lifestyle you've lived for 30+ years and/or change the entire topology of the town" rhetoric.

I don't even think if the entire town got together and said "we want a sidewalk on the main drag with Walmart so carless folks don't have to contend with walking on the shoulder with cars doing 55 in a 45" it would go anywhere, cause there's nowhere to even put that without some huge eminent domain grab.

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18. kortex+mL2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-19 11:30:08
>>bombca+W62
Where exactly would that bike infra go? There's literally nowhere to put a bike lane on 90% of the "strodes" in my town which would actually benefit from one.

It's not just a political or environmental problem, it's purely a "where does this infra even go" situation.

replies(1): >>bombca+0h3
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19. bombca+0h3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-19 14:24:57
>>kortex+mL2
I would have to see the stroads but I can fit bike infra on perhaps the most famous stroad of all, Avenue des Champs-Élysées, so I'm sure I could figure it out.

One thing people don't realize is many US lanes are twelve feet wide, which is much wider than needed for slower traffic (in fact, one of the best ways to slow traffic down is to narrow the lane). An 18-wheeler is 8.5 feet wide, so even a 10 foot lane offers excess room.

If a stroad is three lanes each way, and they're 12 feet each, that's 12 feet that can be recovered simply by reducing lane width, and that doesn't even involve any sidewalk rearrangements.

But bike infra doesn't have to even follow the car infra, you can put a nice bike lane setup one block over from the stroad (more properly the arterial or collector). Nobody really wants to bike next to a bunch of cars anyway.

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20. bombca+pi3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-19 14:31:55
>>kortex+7K2
https://www.pedbikeinfo.org/cms/downloads/Countermeasure_Cos... - this is a bit out of date but the costing per mile relative to roads is going to be somewhat there.

It does take a bit of will and time, but it's a great thing to grumble about at the council meetings; around here all new developments have to have a sidewalk plan (it's not required to be "both sides" but most do that anyway) and connect to the bike paths. They even had a fundraiser a few years ago to raise money to make a connector path, which is quite nice; every business had a little "bike path" jar and it got done.

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21. vlunkr+DR3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-19 17:35:03
>>bombca+W62
I like this idea. I'm sure the automobile industry would suddenly increase their interest in politics.
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