zlacker

[parent] [thread] 42 comments
1. soperj+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-05-10 14:51:55
I think they nailed it with the original 1790 act. 14 years + 14 more is plenty.
replies(3): >>csalle+Ob >>safety+id >>aeturn+Sx
2. csalle+Ob[view] [source] 2023-05-10 15:40:25
>>soperj+(OP)
Same. The very nature of information is that it yearns to be free. Information cannot be "owned." The point of copyright should be to grant temporary monopolies to encourage creation, not to confer ownership.

Thomas Jefferson put it beautifully:

If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property.

replies(4): >>fsckbo+8i >>vinayp+wy >>JumpCr+0Q >>btilly+WR
3. safety+id[view] [source] 2023-05-10 15:46:45
>>soperj+(OP)
I would settle for 14 + 14 too :)
replies(1): >>jasonm+6j4
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4. fsckbo+8i[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 16:05:11
>>csalle+Ob
but copyright is not for information or ideas, information and ideas cannot be copyrighted; it's for creative expression
replies(2): >>renlo+Ir >>accoun+6X2
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5. renlo+Ir[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 16:49:00
>>fsckbo+8i
and why should "creative expression" be owned?
replies(3): >>Jarwai+Uz >>majorm+fM >>jrajav+nO
6. aeturn+Sx[view] [source] 2023-05-10 17:14:54
>>soperj+(OP)
My biggest critique of copyright is that is unnecessarily collapses financial reward & creative control. It also pegs both as starting at creation - which is not a particularly meaningful point for either problem.

IMO I would rather a structure that:

- Guarantees creators (and their descendants) some number of years of financial benefit / veto (30 seems fine!) - i.e. pay me what I want or you can't use this creative work.

- Separately grant creators the ability to veto "official" projects that use their creative output in their lifetimes.

IMO, it seems like there's a productive "middle ground" between total control and anything goes. After the 30 year benefit expired, you couldn't sue for damages - just costs & to stop use.

replies(2): >>quirko+bA >>pauldd+6X
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7. vinayp+wy[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 17:17:36
>>csalle+Ob
> The very nature of information is that it yearns to be free.

Information wants you to stop anthropomorphizing it.

replies(2): >>sdiupI+QF1 >>bohlen+w93
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8. Jarwai+Uz[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 17:23:20
>>renlo+Ir
It should be owned as long as people must rely on ownership to survive in our society.
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9. quirko+bA[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 17:24:43
>>aeturn+Sx
I've heard of a structure in France that's translated as "moral rights" of a work. I met a guy who was the moral rights holder for a deceased author and had the right to veto large and small elements of the representation of the characters, but received no royalties from the works.
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10. majorm+fM[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 18:17:53
>>renlo+Ir
Why should land be owned? None of us created the planet...

But we have selected an economic system that depends on ownership to drive exchange in a market, so... that's why.

replies(4): >>renlo+NM >>tick_t+0b1 >>asdkjl+AL1 >>marssa+jg2
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11. renlo+NM[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 18:20:38
>>majorm+fM
I'd argue that land is owned because it's a finite resource, and that without property ownership people would be in conflict with one another. "Creative expression" is not finite, in fact every human possesses it, it's also intangible, it's ideas, thoughts, ... , which I personally do not believe should be owned.
replies(3): >>wwwest+rZ >>8note+9O1 >>jasonm+bi4
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12. jrajav+nO[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 18:27:02
>>renlo+Ir
Because creative expression can be exchanged for goods and services? Why should metal, wood, or special paper notes be owned? It's to represent work done and value to other people.
replies(1): >>beefie+h41
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13. JumpCr+0Q[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 18:33:08
>>csalle+Ob
> very nature of information is that it yearns to be free. Information cannot be "owned."

The nature of information is to dissolve into entropy.

replies(3): >>dotanc+Qo1 >>sdiupI+iG1 >>accoun+IW2
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14. btilly+WR[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 18:41:41
>>csalle+Ob
Not merely the point of copyright, but also the basis for copyright in the USA.

Specifically all forms of intellectual property in the USA trace back to Article I Section 8, Clause 8 of the Constitution. Which gives Congress the power, "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries".

replies(1): >>musica+Pc2
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15. pauldd+6X[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 19:03:28
>>aeturn+Sx
> After the 30 year benefit expired, you couldn't sue for damages - just costs & to stop use.

That's the same thing.

No one can use my stuff..........(unless you pay me royalties).

replies(1): >>aeturn+au1
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16. wwwest+rZ[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 19:11:22
>>renlo+NM
> "Creative expression" is not finite

It absolutely is.

Doing it at all requires time & attentive focus, which is a finite resource for anybody mortal, and moreover a resource that's scarce and has to be spent in multiple places.

Doing it well requires significant investment in practice and training, often years of it, maybe even decades in order to develop certain levels of expressive fluency.

As with any issue of scarcity, economics comes in. If you want this activity supported, one good way of doing it is enabling the investment of time. Copyright does this by giving people an economic/legal claim on how copies of their work are distributed.

Paying for copies has the usual market merits -- the economic reward and signals of value are proportional to copies acquired. There are other ways of course, common ones brought up here are patronage and merchandising, but they lose the market merits, and both are basically another way of saying "nobody should have to pay for the value in your work directly," and merchandising is even worse in that it's basically saying "yeah, you'll just need another job to support yourself while you're doing this thing", which is time taken away from investment in the creative endeavor, so you'll get less of the actual endeavor.

replies(2): >>onlypo+TA1 >>musica+ve2
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17. beefie+h41[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 19:32:35
>>jrajav+nO
Nope. Metal & wood etc should be owned because it very much looks like that is very useful in creating lots of welfare for people.

The trouble with IP is that there are lots of influential people that very much would like IP to be useful in creating welfare. Unfortunately the evidence for that is surprisingly scarce. For discussion, see e.g. Boldrin & Levine

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18. tick_t+0b1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 20:07:37
>>majorm+fM
Where do you get to actually own own land like you do copyright? Maybe we can add property taxes to copyright to force people to give it up just like land.
replies(1): >>majorm+hs1
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19. dotanc+Qo1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 21:14:11
>>JumpCr+0Q
You bought a Western Digital drive too, eh?
replies(2): >>debo_+U72 >>bohlen+L93
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20. majorm+hs1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 21:33:34
>>tick_t+0b1
Taxing IP is an interesting idea; we do tax income from it, but I think an increasing scale of "you have to pay more to keep this for longer" would be pretty reasonable.
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21. aeturn+au1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 21:45:13
>>pauldd+6X
Look - it's absolutely not the same thing. The point is to allow non-profit-seeking uses first. To push off the free-for-all of commercialization until after an interstitial period.

You can certainly pay the rights holder to use their property! Still! You could do it even without copyright I suppose. However, I think a space where it costs time and money for the rights holder to try to stop use and they won't get paid for it is super useful.

Consider this in the case of software as well - you get ~30 years of benefit from your work, but you can refuse to allow companies to incorporate it into their products as long as you live. Whichever companies you want! You can also not do that.

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22. onlypo+TA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 22:29:44
>>wwwest+rZ
I think you're confusing creation and expression.

Expression has no value in today's digital world.

Creation has value but using expression to exchange for that value is difficult, requiring limits on expression in order for the system to work.

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23. sdiupI+QF1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 23:02:43
>>vinayp+wy
I've said before that it gets tiring playing word games to avoid the suggestion that certain natural pressures have personal agency. Information wants to be free like a rock wants to roll downhill.
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24. sdiupI+iG1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 23:04:58
>>JumpCr+0Q
The nature of the universe is to tend toward heat death. Meanwhile, here and now, the nature of information is to either reproduce (to be free) _or else_ dissolve into entropy.
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25. asdkjl+AL1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 23:29:58
>>majorm+fM
> Why should land be owned?

it shouldn't. Or, well, it should, but it should be the one and only thing taxed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism

replies(1): >>Tagber+Uh2
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26. 8note+9O1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-10 23:47:32
>>renlo+NM
People are still in conflict with each other for property ownership, so it's not solved

The ownership, with heavy taxes on that ownership, pushes towards making sure people benefit from the land.

replies(1): >>justin+FZ2
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27. debo_+U72[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 02:03:53
>>dotanc+Qo1
Underrated comment!
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28. musica+Pc2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 02:48:23
>>btilly+WR
> limited times

Technically life + 70 years - or 1 million years for that matter - is "limited" - but I imagine 14+14 is probably closer to what they had in mind.

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29. musica+ve2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 03:02:47
>>wwwest+rZ
I think the concept that PP may be trying to get across is scarcity:

"goods are scarce because there are not enough resources to produce all the goods that people want to consume".(quoted at [1])

Physical books are intrinsically scarce because they require physical resources to make and distribute copies. Libraries are often limited by physical shelf space.

Ebooks are not intrinsically scarce because there are enough resources to enable anyone on the internet to download any one of millions of ebooks at close to zero marginal cost, with minimal physical space requirements per book. Archive.org and Z-Library are examples of this.

Consider also free goods:

"Examples of free goods are ideas and works that are reproducible at zero cost, or almost zero cost. For example, if someone invents a new device, many people could copy this invention, with no danger of this "resource" running out."[2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarcity

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_good

replies(1): >>wwwest+Lk2
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30. marssa+jg2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 03:19:14
>>majorm+fM
> But we have selected an economic system that depends on ownership to drive exchange in a market, so... that's why.

For extremely loose values of "we", perhaps - I didn't select it, and I would vote "no" if the idea were proposed...

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31. Tagber+Uh2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 03:32:50
>>asdkjl+AL1
I live in Washington state where the state taxes are mainly sales tax and property tax. Both end up being regressive. Sales tax is because it is not proportional to income. You might think that property tax would hit higher income people more but what happens is that the property tax makes homes more expensive for low income people and is also passed on to renters in their monthly rent.
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32. wwwest+Lk2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 03:55:25
>>musica+ve2
> the concept that PP may be trying to get across is scarcity:

It's pretty mysterious that you think you need to introduce this to the conversation at this point given how prominently scarcity dynamics figure into the comment you're replying to.

> Physical books are intrinsically scarce

Once their production was industrialized with printing press tech, copies of books weren't scarce, they were actually revolutionarily cheap.

The copyright bargain isn't borne out of ignorance of how changes in that direction affect the overall dynamic, it's borne out of deep understanding of what remains scarce and risky and difficult to compensate for when the marginal cost of producing copies drops drastically, and what kind of claims might help.

replies(1): >>musica+Pv2
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33. musica+Pv2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 05:19:54
>>wwwest+Lk2
Actually I was replying to both of you (sadly not an obvious structural way to do that on HN), but perhaps I should have made it clearer that the "finite" concept PP was trying to get across actually seems to be scarcity - land is scarce, paper books less so - and intangible goods such as ebooks are not scarce at all (DRM attempts notwithstanding.)

Authorship may be scarce - costly and resource intensive (LLMs notwithstanding) as you describe, while copying and distribution of intangible goods like ideas or digital media is essentially free and unlimited, as I suspect PP was trying to say.

As you correctly note, the constitutional copyright bargain permits a limited time monopoly in return for (hopefully) advancing "the progress of science and the useful arts."

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34. accoun+IW2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 08:55:30
>>JumpCr+0Q
Information and entropy are more or less the same thing. Ask Shannon.
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35. accoun+6X2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 08:58:09
>>fsckbo+8i
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
replies(1): >>jasonm+Nh4
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36. justin+FZ2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 09:19:20
>>8note+9O1
> people benefit from the land

"which people in particular are benefitting the most" seems to be the perennial question.

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37. bohlen+w93[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 10:48:32
>>vinayp+wy
Oh wow, I like this one!
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38. bohlen+L93[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 10:50:33
>>dotanc+Qo1
Why doesn’t this platform offer a “like” button for answers?
replies(2): >>jasonm+Ah4 >>dotanc+fI4
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39. jasonm+Ah4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 16:41:10
>>bohlen+L93
You can click the up arrowhead to up-vote.
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40. jasonm+Nh4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 16:42:14
>>accoun+6X2
I wonder how many people think this is a string... and don't know about these magic numbers.
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41. jasonm+bi4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 16:44:04
>>renlo+NM
This idea is not without detractors.

"Property is theft" is not a new idea, makes a lot of sense. Unless you have a lot of it, and then those [censored] can [censored] right off.

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42. jasonm+6j4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 16:47:56
>>safety+id
You probably wouldn't if you were the owner of the Marvel franchise or other such cash cows.

Copyright that doesn't expire would make "a whole lot of cents".

(I agree with you but, the ownership is the corrupting factor.)

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43. dotanc+fI4[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-05-11 18:36:50
>>bohlen+L93
Welcome, newcomer. As flattered as I am by your want to "like", my comment was not informative and even borderline trolling (by changing the subject). On HN, such comments are better to downvote. Please don't start upvoting comments that stray from the issue under discussion, funny as they might be.
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