zlacker

[parent] [thread] 22 comments
1. gedy+(OP)[view] [source] 2023-02-18 20:26:38
> A most formidable female -> A most formidable woman

What is the reasoning for this? Not following what is "wrong" in the original.

replies(4): >>watwut+D >>webjun+s4 >>everyb+vx >>bee_ri+XI
2. watwut+D[view] [source] 2023-02-18 20:29:37
>>gedy+(OP)
The new one sounds more like people speak today.
replies(3): >>Dig1t+j3 >>vnchr+Uv >>everyb+Px
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3. Dig1t+j3[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-18 20:48:01
>>watwut+D
The choice of the word female in the original feels intentional. Using a more clinical term like that instead of “girl” or “woman“ can change the whole feel of the sentence.
replies(2): >>Robotb+Iv >>jeppes+my
4. webjun+s4[view] [source] 2023-02-18 20:55:52
>>gedy+(OP)
Using the term "female" to describe a woman can be perceived as reductive and dehumanizing because it reduces her to a biological category. By using the term "woman," the focus is shifted from her biological characteristics to her identity as a person, which is a more respectful and accurate way of addressing her.

Worth noting is that there is no equivalent term to "female" when referring to men, who are almost always referred to as "men." This is because there is an underlying cultural assumption that men are the default and women are the exception. While the use of the word "female" to describe a woman is not inherently wrong, using the term "woman" is more accurate and respectful, and nobody would use the term "male" to describe a man in the same way.

replies(2): >>Dig1t+O5 >>gsincl+nm1
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5. Dig1t+O5[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-18 21:04:30
>>webjun+s4
>Worth noting is that there is no equivalent term to "female"

“Male” is the word, and it is used in lots of books in exactly the same way as it’s being used here.

I have read tons of books that said something along the lines of “he was an excellent male specimen” or “a member of the male species”

Using the word female/male has a specific effect on the way the sentence reads, it gives it a clinical feel and is very useful. Rewriting usages to the approved, politically correct, version just smacks of 1984 style newspeak.

replies(1): >>lozeng+Qn1
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6. Robotb+Iv[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 00:23:30
>>Dig1t+j3
And because of the alliteration.
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7. vnchr+Uv[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 00:25:00
>>watwut+D
Newspeak, if you will.
8. everyb+vx[view] [source] 2023-02-19 00:38:14
>>gedy+(OP)
Good example of the artistic damage done by the committee. The wit of the original lay in the alliteration. Recall that alliteration is the oldest poetic meter in English. "Leoden litheost ..." -- Beowulf
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9. everyb+Px[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 00:41:49
>>watwut+D
"He who knows only his own time remains forever a child." -Cicero
replies(1): >>watwut+uT2
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10. jeppes+my[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 00:46:17
>>Dig1t+j3
Isn't it far more likely that he used the "female" because "formidable female" sounds great whereas "formidable woman" is more bland.
11. bee_ri+XI[view] [source] 2023-02-19 02:17:47
>>gedy+(OP)
In current American English, “female” has shifted to usually being an adjective, woman is a noun. Referring to people by noun-ing one of the adjectives that describes them is something considered reductive by a chunk of the population.

If someone is a fan of “female” as a noun: I’m not going to change your mind. I get that changing language is annoying sometimes. I’m pointing out that “female” as a noun does bother some people, “woman” only bothers people if they know it’s been changed and see it as bowing to PC pressure. Since most people don’t check the diffs from one edition to another when buying books, this is a really easy decision on the part of the publisher, who just wants to quietly make money for the most part.

replies(3): >>Gigach+6N >>joseph+NX >>oska+3h1
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12. Gigach+6N[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 02:49:42
>>bee_ri+XI
As a native English speaker, I find it hard to keep up and understand everything that’s now been deemed inappropriate. I can’t imagine how a non native would understand.

Seems like there is an effort to intentionally keep making it more complex to show who really keeps up with twitter the most.

replies(2): >>bee_ri+sP >>p1peri+lY
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13. bee_ri+sP[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 03:14:01
>>Gigach+6N
I don’t have a twitter account to get updates on this, so I just try to avoid nouning adjectives related to any hot button issues. I dunno, I’m not the Word Police, just interested in avoiding unnecessary conflict.

I’d hope that most people would give the benefit of the doubt people who aren’t native English speakers, though.

replies(1): >>gsincl+1m1
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14. joseph+NX[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 04:30:25
>>bee_ri+XI
"[first thing] does bother some people, [second thing] only bothers people if they [condition]."

That phrasing (in particular "does" vs. "only") makes it sound like being bothered by the first thing is inherently justified but being bothered by the second thing isn't. And why do you specify the condition that will cause the second thing to bother the people but leave it ambiguous for the first thing?

replies(1): >>bee_ri+z11
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15. p1peri+lY[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 04:35:38
>>Gigach+6N
> I can’t imagine how a non native would understand.

I don't understand it. Respectfully, I also find it mildly amusing.

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16. bee_ri+z11[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 05:05:23
>>joseph+NX
That the former is unconditional while the latter is conditional is simply an accurate description of the situation.

I don’t think describing the conditional thing as conditional implies any judgement.

replies(1): >>flippi+27j
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17. oska+3h1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 08:23:01
>>bee_ri+XI
> Referring to people by noun-ing one of the adjectives that describes them

The noun sense of female well precedes (going back to its Latin roots) the adjectival sense of the word. [1] The adjectival sense came from the noun, the exact reverse of what you are saying.

And this pattern of adjectives coming from nouns (e.g. leafy, greasy, beautiful, harmful, dangerous, adventurous) is common, while the reverse is not (I'm hard put to think of even one example). So what you are saying here is a nonsense, with no scholarly basis to it.

[1] https://www.etymonline.com/word/female#etymonline_v_5841

replies(1): >>bee_ri+zj2
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18. gsincl+1m1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 09:32:16
>>bee_ri+sP
Also give the benefit of the doubt to native speakers who are engaged in good-faith communication.
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19. gsincl+nm1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 09:37:33
>>webjun+s4
I personally would not call someone “a female”, for the reductive reasons you mention.

I also would not change the words of a dead author to reflect modern usage because I enjoy stepping into a the past and seeing how people used to write. Plus there is the alliteration, which is really the clincher here: those who edited this are philistines.

(Not throwing anything at you, webjunkie. You merely explained the change without opining on it. Just commenting in general.)

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20. lozeng+Qn1[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 09:54:56
>>Dig1t+O5
Both examples use the word male as an adjective.

The right example would be "He was a boisterous male."

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21. bee_ri+zj2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 17:21:09
>>oska+3h1
I’ll make sure to keep that in mind if I encounter any ancient Romans.
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22. watwut+uT2[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-19 21:03:45
>>everyb+Px
These are not exactly historical books. They are the kind of books you have no reason to read if they don't sound pleasant to today's ears.

Which is okay, to me it is OK if these books are not read. There are enough other books. But, people selling them will want then to sound like people talk today.

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23. flippi+27j[view] [source] [discussion] 2023-02-24 13:20:13
>>bee_ri+z11
"Woman" does bother some people because they have always used the word that way whereas "female" only bothers people who are hell bent on changing language.

Fixed it for you.

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