zlacker

> Today, the supreme commander of NATO is Jens Stoltenberg, a committed anti-communist, who served as Norway’s prime minister for eight years before moving to his high NATO post, with American backing, in 2014. He was a hardliner on all things Putin and Russia who had cooperated with the American intelligence community since the Vietnam War. He has been trusted completely since. “He is the glove that fits the American hand,” the source said.

A lot of what he is saying here is not strictly true. Jens Stoltenberg was the leader of the labour party and while he was not a communist, describing him as a committed anti-communist is just plainly wrong. It was not part of his platform at all and one the parties in his coalition was a socialist, Marxist party.

Also he was not a hardliner on Russia. In fact during his time as a prime minister Norway and Russia peacefully and diplomatically solved the territorial dispute they had in the Barents Sea.

Neither have the Americans always completely trusted him since the Vietnam war. He was vocally anti-NATO in his youth and the Bush administration gave him a cold shoulder for the rest of it's years after he was elected prime minister in 2005. He claimed that during the congratulation call from the American president he said that he wanted all Norwegian troops out of Iraq and the the mission. The Americans were adamant he did not.

I know it's just one paragraph, but when thing gets misconstructed by the source in such a way it kinda losses credibility with me. Also the quote about Norwegians "Hating Russians" while I've never felt anything like that in my dealing with the armed forces (Norway don't have any historical grievances with Russia), really makes me question it.

>>edence+(OP)
Also, Supreme Allied Commander Europe is General Cavoli. Stoltenberg is Secretary General of NATO. The former is what most people would call the "supreme commander" since has military operational command. He is American so immediately suspect. In between there is Chair of the NATO Military Committee, who is Dutch admiral.

>>ianbur+s9
Yep. Gell Mann Amnesia in full effect here. Everything you two have said are basic geopolitical knowledge blunders and it's clear Hersh has lost his intellectual bearing the last decade as he's now 85...

Hersh: "Today, the supreme commander of NATO is Jens Stoltenberg"

Reality: Jens Stoltenberg is the secretary general of NATO.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Allied_Commander_Europ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jens_Stoltenberg

>>edence+(OP)
I had a similar reaction after reading the brief description of the Swedish navy’s dealings with Russian submarines: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34715500

It’s a bit strange to report on something so controversial and not make sure all verifiable claims are true…

>>edence+(OP)
> A lot of what he is saying here is not strictly true. Jens Stoltenberg was the leader of the labour party and while he was not a communist, describing him as a committed anti-communist is just plainly wrong.

Would “milquetoast moderate” be more fitting? That’s at least closer to how the Labour Party operates, even though their rhetoric is more left-leaning than the other major party (H).

> He claimed that during the congratulation call from the American president he said that he wanted all Norwegian troops out of Iraq and the the mission. The Americans were adamant he did not.

He said that he said that? How brave of him.

>>edence+(OP)
> A lot of what he is saying here is not strictly true.

Well, that's certainly a kinder description than I would give. 'Blatant fucking bullshit' seems closer to the mark.

>>edence+(OP)
Thanks, Vietnam was over in '75, Stoltenberg was 16 then. It's just all so absurd.

>>reduce+mh
This is a mistaken title attribution, but even with a correction do you think it changes much? Stoltenberg is the civilian leader of NATO and having his support is crucial. Hersh may have been mistaken in the title, but not the person nor their importance.

>>mzs+LI
>Thanks, Vietnam was over in '75, Stoltenberg was 16 then. It's just all so absurd.

Not necessarily.

I had thought Hersh's "since the Vietnam War" line to be poorly phrased, or an editing mistake, but /u/michaelmacmanus makes an interesting point <https://np.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/10wx42b/seymour_h...>. Maybe we should take the line literally!

>>kubect+9d1
It actually means a lot. Hersh is basing the entire story off one anonymous source. For such a serious implication, he’s unable to even do due diligence on basic verifiable facts. That buries the lede on how much verification he competently did for his source.

>>kubect+9d1
I mean, he also claims Stoltenberg collaborated with American intelligence during Vietnam at the tender age of 16 given his birth date and the end of the war. The whole paragraph is just completely wrong.

>>TMWNN+mf1
Ah, yes, the CIA were so threatened by a couple of kids throwing rocks at the American embassy, they enlisted a child to uncover the identities of the perpetrators, who presumably were punished with hard labour in the Norwegian gulags for their heinous crime of vandalism.

>>reduce+Zl1
It doesn't really. It's the kind of thing that could slip by fact checkers at plenty of publications and result in a fairly innocuous correction.

>>manner+do1
Why is it impossible that he hasn't cooperated with American intelligence since the Vietnam war -- a quick cursory search of his name and Vietnam yield many press release type new clippings that he was quite active in protests during that war -- protests that led to the jailing of his friend but conveniently not him...

>>kubect+hB1
The idea that the CIA recruited a teenager to infiltrate a group of Norwegian activists for throwing rocks at the American embassy is the silliest thing I've ever heard of. If he had been arrested, I'm sure you'd be saying that was proof he cut a deal with the authorities for lenience in his punishment for petty vandalism.

>>manner+N92
I didn't say the CIA recruited him to infiltrate anything. No one is saying he's a secret agent. I'm just saying it's possible that there is a history of cooperation of some form or another since he was a young activist and through an extraordinary career, which has led him to be "trusted completely since."

I don't believe it because I don't know, but I don't think it's insane to consider or that the existence of a relationship is impossible on face value because he was merely a young activist in the 70s.

>>kubect+jr2
Is there any evidence at all of this sort of 'history of cooperation'?

>>manner+3A2
Beyond Hersh's unnamed source, not that I know of. Again I don't believe it disbelieve it. But I don't dismiss it out of hand because it's not enumerated in an NYT article or a wikipedia page.

>>kubect+MH2
So what's more likely here:

1. Stoltenberg didn't get arrested because he was the son of a high-ranking government official.

2. He had a secret history of collaboration with American intelligence going back to his teenage days that is only being mentioned now in a single line in a paragraph with several other factual inaccuracies.

>>kubect+rA1
A single mistake, maybe. An entire paragraph where every single sentence consists of a separate claim that is either outright wrong or unsupported by any evidence? Well, maybe it is par for the course for modern journalism after all.

>>manner+QK2
Good points, perhaps he was connected with American intelligence at such an early because his father's positions in defense and foreign affairs. Seems even more plausible.

>>kubect+O14
Yes, I'm sure the CIA was consulting with a 16-year-old on the Vietnam War in 1975. Very plausible!

>>edence+(OP)
> "Today, the supreme commander of NATO is Jens Stoltenberg ... He was a hardliner on all things Putin and Russia who had cooperated with the American intelligence community since the Vietnam War."

During the Vietnam War (1955-1975) Stoltenberg (born 1959) was -4 to 16 years old..

Hersh possibly confused Jens with his father Thorvald Stoltenberg. Who travelled to North-Vietnam in 1970 to negotiate between them and USA, and who was commended for his negotiating skills by the am. intel community in a declassified rapport from 1980.

Links/sources follow:

«Thorvald Stoltenberg and Reiulf Steen visited Hanoi in 1970.»

https://vietnamkrigen-wordpress-com.translate.goog/2010/02/2...

«In a new biography of Thorvald Stoltenberg, it is described how Norway brokered peace between the parties in the Vietnam War at the end of the 1960s.»

https://www-vg-no.translate.goog/nyheter/innenriks/i/Pk947/n...

«Defense Minister Thorvald Stoltenberg was praised for his negotiating skills in a so far classified CIA report from 1980.«

https://www-nettavisen-no.translate.goog/nyheter/cia-vurdert...

>>edence+(OP)
«Stoltenberg and Støre discussed the possibilities for the job of secretary general in NATO already in 2010, Klassekampen writes.

It was the year before Norway took part in extensive bombing of Libya«

https://e24-no.translate.goog/karriere-og-ledelse/i/xPlw8V/h...

«lieutenant colonel Tormod Heier said: - In its first years, the Stoltenberg government had a bad reputation in the USA, partly because we did not contribute in southern Afghanistan. After SV was weakened in the 2009 election, Libya became an opportunity to repair relations with the United States. This has contributed to the fact that Norway has now moved up a division in NATO .

And as a thank you for his efforts, Jens Stoltenberg was appointed Secretary General of NATO.«

https://www-dagsavisen-no.translate.goog/kultur/2014/10/15/s...

>>mzs+LI
Hersh possibly confused Jens with his father Thorvald Stoltenberg. Who travelled to North-Vietnam in 1970 to negotiate between them and USA, and who was commended for his negotiating skills by the am. intel community in a declassified rapport from 1980.

See my other comment for sources.

>>manner+do1
The US controlled a lot of Social Democratic groups during the Cold War. Remember the European Left was overwhelmingly either Communist or Third Campist Socialists (non-Communist Marxists) in the first decade or two after WWII. Ever since then, the CIA boosted both Atlanticist Soc Dems and New Leftists, the latter perhaps being anti-American on the surface but undermining trade unions and socialist structures.

And now nearly every dumbass Western "progressive" thinks NATO is some holy defensive force and imperialism is somehow only something far lesser powers do.

Moreover, Stoltenberg´s DAD was a pro-NATO Defence and Foreign Minister.