zlacker

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1. cmh89+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-12-16 03:46:57
The people who cheered Musk for his "pro free speech" attitude don't actually believe or want free speech. They want free speech for themselves and censorship for people they don't like.

See the terrorist attacks against Drag Queens.

replies(6): >>astero+F2 >>hgdfhg+03 >>ditona+N6 >>strang+mh >>silisi+km >>chrisb+zW
2. astero+F2[view] [source] 2022-12-16 04:04:50
>>cmh89+(OP)
Did these "attack" include realtime doxxing? Especially after TOS modified to prohibit it?

Or can you give other examples of disparity between free speech rule applications for themselves and people they don't like?

replies(2): >>cmh89+g3 >>richbe+p3
3. hgdfhg+03[view] [source] 2022-12-16 04:07:26
>>cmh89+(OP)
How many journalists who didn't dox Musk's plane have been censored and suspended?
replies(3): >>cmh89+o3 >>generj+s4 >>Bryant+Qu
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4. cmh89+g3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 04:09:01
>>astero+F2
>Did these "attack" include realtime doxxing? Especially after TOS modified to prohibit it?

Posting public information publicly isn't doxxing and until you give up that falsehood, there isn't really anywhere the conversation can go.

Of course a free speech "absolutist" like Musk is a complete hypocrite for not allowing doxxing in the first place.

replies(1): >>astero+y4
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5. cmh89+o3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 04:10:04
>>hgdfhg+03
Posting public info isn't doxxing, sorry.
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6. richbe+p3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 04:10:13
>>astero+F2
It is disingenuous to call sharing publicly available information about an airplane's travel "realtime doxing".
replies(1): >>astero+14
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7. astero+14[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 04:13:17
>>richbe+p3
Why? If one wants to harass Musk, meeting him at the airport is convenient.
replies(4): >>VicFra+k5 >>EFreet+N7 >>DSMan1+mc >>Bryant+Ku
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8. generj+s4[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 04:16:30
>>hgdfhg+03
Several. Some got banned for posting screenshots of an LAPD statement, or just discussions of other journalists being banned.
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9. astero+y4[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 04:16:48
>>cmh89+g3
> Posting public information publicly isn't doxxing

Sometimes it is.

For example, name plate on the mailbox is publicly available, but posting the address with full name online constitutes doxxing.

> a free speech "absolutist" like Musk is a complete hypocrite

One guy once said, who never changes his/her opinion, is a moron.

replies(3): >>cmh89+95 >>kevinm+J5 >>EFreet+A7
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10. cmh89+95[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 04:20:26
>>astero+y4
The mental gymnastics that folks go to excuse Musk's behavior will get ever more absurd.

Musk will continue to censor speech he doesn't like arbitrarily and use Twitter to promote right-wing extremists who will then hurt real people in the real world.

replies(1): >>astero+aL1
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11. VicFra+k5[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 04:21:47
>>astero+14
Is there any evidence this has ever happened? I have to believe that if it has, he would have brought it up.
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12. kevinm+J5[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 04:24:15
>>astero+y4
Musk's definition of free speech in the past included calling his critics pedophiles and making false statements about his company's stock. Now it doesn't include publicly available information about the location of a vehicle he owns?
13. ditona+N6[view] [source] 2022-12-16 04:32:53
>>cmh89+(OP)
I don't know why it's so impossible to believe there are people who truly do want free speech.

I wasn't sure if Musk was going to deliver it, but I tried to remain open-minded. I did think previous Twitter management leaned left with some admittedly difficult moderation decisions, but obviously I'm finding out that Musk is even less supportive of true free speech.

Ironically this banning of Mastodon links is the #1 thing pushing me to start exploring Mastodon or other platforms.

replies(4): >>xenosp+29 >>epista+fc >>drcong+BV >>cmh89+Fy3
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14. EFreet+A7[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 04:37:23
>>astero+y4
> One guy once said, who never changes his/her opinion, is a moron.

You might be referring to JM Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind."

The question is what facts are changing? Here, it looks like the only difference is that something bad happened to HIM.

replies(1): >>astero+zL1
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15. EFreet+N7[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 04:38:38
>>astero+14
If you can afford a private jet, you can probably afford a bodyguard.

There are a few people with less money than Mush who have bodyguards.

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16. xenosp+29[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 04:45:54
>>ditona+N6
Let me know when you find them. So far, every “free-speech“ platform has been a dumpster fire full of instant bans for anyone the user base does not agree with.
replies(1): >>anonym+5g
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17. epista+fc[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 05:06:30
>>ditona+N6
It's impossible to believe because we know people who say that, and we know that their fundamental belief is that rules exist in two ways: 1) to protect and serve a certain class, without binding them, and 2) to bind the other class, without protecting the other class.

This is not a new phenomenon, the only thing that changes is the terms used to signal the meaning.

replies(1): >>Animal+962
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18. DSMan1+mc[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 05:07:10
>>astero+14
Clearly nothing is stopping someone from doing that anyway, but also nobody ever knows if Elon is actually on any of the three planes tracked (unless he posts about where he's going or where he is). They're not even his personal planes, they're owned by his companies and used by other people. If he's that worried about a stalker he should just charter a jet instead of flying on jets associated with him or his companies, then nobody would know.
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19. anonym+5g[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 05:33:41
>>xenosp+29
I don't think this is true of 4chan
replies(1): >>Alexan+0l
20. strang+mh[view] [source] 2022-12-16 05:44:52
>>cmh89+(OP)
I want free speech, hence I think Elon is a tremendous hypocrite for enacting this policy. Once you start deciding whether or not things are 'safe' to say you will end up in the exact situation Jack, et al. were in when they were censoring just with different biases. He doesn't seem to understand that and is doomed to repeat their mistakes.

There is some irony now seeing those that didn't believe the banning of accounts arbitrarily was an issue under previous management decrying this move by Elon.

replies(1): >>awb+Jx
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21. Alexan+0l[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 06:17:17
>>anonym+5g
4chan is interesting because it feels like a holdover from the "old" internet. Less a "platform" and more an unruly forum with its own distinct culture.

If 4chan had anywhere near the size/reach of Twitter or Facebook, I think it would either be more toxic or more restrictive in its moderation.

22. silisi+km[view] [source] 2022-12-16 06:27:22
>>cmh89+(OP)
> They want free speech for themselves and censorship for people they don't like.

This is probably true, but it also describes Twitter prior to the takeover.

If anything is clear to me, it's that it seems impossible to have a completely neutral/fair public forum. Or perhaps it is possible, but people dislike the opposition so much they aren't interested in using it.

replies(1): >>postin+vo
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23. postin+vo[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 06:41:31
>>silisi+km
But Twitter management weren't claiming to be free speech absolutists.
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24. Bryant+Ku[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 07:24:22
>>astero+14
It’s worth noting that the tracker doesn’t post destinations until, of course, the plane actually lands. You cannot use the data provided to determine where to meet him.
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25. Bryant+Qu[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 07:25:10
>>hgdfhg+03
People have covered the current wave. Also, earlier this month, Chad Loder was suspended for reasons which haven’t been explained yet.
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26. awb+Jx[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 07:46:35
>>strang+mh
> There is some irony now seeing those that didn't believe the banning of accounts arbitrarily was an issue under previous management decrying this move by Elon.

No, the irony is not that the site under both owners is trying to remove bad/harmful content (just defining it differently).

The irony is that Musk thought he wasn’t going to have to do it at all: “absolute free speech”, “public square”, “comedy is legal”, etc.

One of the banned journalists went on Mastodon and said (paraphrasing): “It’s his site and he can ban whoever he wants”

And to be fair, under both owners, accounts were banned for violating ToS policies. The policies are just different, but they’re still the rules you agree to when you use the site.

I just don’t think anyone thought “free speech” meant no parodying, no republishing public FAA info, etc.

replies(1): >>strang+Qb6
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27. drcong+BV[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 11:32:29
>>ditona+N6
> I don't know why it's so impossible to believe there are people who truly do want free speech.

Anyone intelligent enough to think it through knows it's a paradox, so anyone who truly does want free speech clearly hasn't actually thought it through. They exist, but nobody should take them seriously.

replies(2): >>throwa+dY >>bheadm+nd1
28. chrisb+zW[view] [source] 2022-12-16 11:38:59
>>cmh89+(OP)
Please provide an example that actually happened of a "terrorist attack against drag queens".
replies(1): >>ceejay+jX
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29. ceejay+jX[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 11:45:03
>>chrisb+zW
Five dead in Colorado very recently: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/21/us/colorado-springs-shoot...

Less terroristy but still super shitty: https://www.vice.com/en/article/4axmy3/far-right-attacked-dr...

If Musk wants to demonstrate a newly sensitive attitude towards doxxing and its dangers, he’s welcome to ban Libs of TikTok.

replies(1): >>polski+GA1
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30. throwa+dY[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 11:53:08
>>drcong+BV
I encourage you to think more highly of those that disagree with you, and to consider their points more earnestly.
replies(1): >>drcong+i31
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31. drcong+i31[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 12:35:30
>>throwa+dY
Believing in a logical fallacy is not a difference of opinion.
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32. bheadm+nd1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 14:00:21
>>drcong+BV
> Anyone intelligent enough to think it through knows it's a paradox

I don't, so I assume I'm not that intelligent. Would you please explain to me how is it a paradox?

replies(1): >>coldpi+sz1
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33. coldpi+sz1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 15:48:07
>>bheadm+nd1
Sure. Speech can, itself, restrict speech. "I have a gun in my pocket and I will shoot anyone who disagrees with me." It's just speech, but it restricts others' willingness to speak. If you allow all speech, some speakers will use that tool to restrict others' speech, which means not all speech is actually allowed. "Free speech" is a paradox.
replies(2): >>drcong+ML1 >>bheadm+nN1
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34. polski+GA1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 15:53:37
>>ceejay+jX
No evidence has been presented that ClubQ was terrorism, though.
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35. astero+aL1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 16:37:15
>>cmh89+95
> use Twitter to promote right-wing extremists

I did not see evidence of that.

replies(1): >>cmh89+Ty3
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36. astero+zL1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 16:39:11
>>EFreet+A7
No, I'm referring to the other guys.

People change mind even if facts do not change.

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37. drcong+ML1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 16:39:43
>>coldpi+sz1
Perfect, thanks.
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38. bheadm+nN1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 16:46:14
>>coldpi+sz1
> It's just speech

It's not just speech - it's speech with an intention to do harm. That's like saying going into a bank and saying "my partner there has a gun and he will start shooting unless you give me money" is also abusing free speech - it's not about speech, it's about actions in the real world.

> If you allow all speech, some speakers will use that tool to restrict others' speech, which means not all speech is actually allowed

Nobody uses speech on its own to restrict others' speech.

> "Free speech" is a paradox.

I'm not convinced, see above explanations.

replies(1): >>coldpi+9Q1
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39. coldpi+9Q1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 16:56:48
>>bheadm+nN1
Right, so now we've moved from "free speech" to "free speech unless it has an intention to do harm" which means you agree that some speech ought to be restricted. Suddenly things get really complicated (how do you define "harm" and "intention" and even "has"?), and now you're on the same page as the rest of us who understand that "free speech" is a paradox.
replies(1): >>bheadm+NX2
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40. Animal+962[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 18:05:32
>>epista+fc
That is extremely flawed logic. It is logically equivalent to "We know there are counterfeit dollars, therefore there cannot be real ones."

Sure, there are phonies. Therefore it is impossible to believe that anyone is genuine? No.

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41. bheadm+NX2[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 22:12:53
>>coldpi+9Q1
> Right, so now we've moved from "free speech" to "free speech unless it has an intention to do harm"

We haven't moved anywhere, because it's not speech that's illegal, it's the intention to do harm. You could perfectly well communicate your intentions to do harm with no speech at all, e.g. by pointing a gun to a bank teller without saying a word. If you use speech to offer to sell drugs to somebody, and a cop arrests you for it, that's not an issue of free speech, that's an issue of drug dealing.

The fact that you aren't allowed to commit crimes by using your speech doesn't make free speech itself a paradox - otherwise any use of the word "free" in the context of humans in society might as well be paradoxical. "We're not free to commit a murder, therefore individual freedom is a paradox" - that'd be quite a naive take on the matter.

replies(1): >>coldpi+E13
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42. coldpi+E13[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 22:28:38
>>bheadm+NX2
You're losing track of the conversation. I'm not talking about laws or society or legality. I'm explaining how one person can use their speech to cause another person to choose not to speak, in other words, suppress that second person's speech. This is why it's a paradox: enabling free speech can itself suppress speech.
replies(1): >>bheadm+043
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43. bheadm+043[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 22:42:01
>>coldpi+E13
I'm not losing track of the conversation - free speech is a legal concept, and you haven't written that you're talking about the ideal of free speech. Please do not mistake your inability to express yourself with my ability to follow a conversation.

In case of free speech as an ideal, it's still a bullshit argument. You cannot suppress speech with speech alone. Go on any anonymous internet forum and try to suppress someone's speech by e.g. threatening to doxx/harm them - you will be laughed at, because on the internet there is no real threat of harm. It's always the threat of harm that actually suppresses speech, not speech itself.

That fact that you use speech to deliver the threat doesn't in itself create a paradox.

In context of freedom of movement, that argument would be akin to "free movement is a paradox because you can suppress someone's movement by holding them down". Yes, you use free movement to walk up to a person, but it's not your movement that holds them down.

replies(1): >>drcong+bs5
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44. cmh89+Fy3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 02:00:25
>>ditona+N6
>don't know why it's so impossible to believe there are people who truly do want free speech.

Because everybody has a point where they don't want free speech anymore. If I gathered your home address and told everyone you were a pedophile that needed to be killed, you'd probably be less stoked about free speech.

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45. cmh89+Ty3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 02:02:16
>>astero+aL1
Musk has in the past and very recently supported conspiracy theories. Dr. Fauci, one of the greatest public servants we've had in this country, was accused by Musk of 'killing millions'.

Musk is a right-wing extremist who will protect his own.

replies(1): >>astero+XP5
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46. drcong+bs5[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 18:43:58
>>bheadm+043
Free speech is not a legal concept. The most cited example of speech being used to harm others is shouting "Fire" in crowded theatre and people dying in the stampede to leave. There is no legal protection for doing so. Speech has consequences, sometimes benign, sometimes not.
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47. astero+XP5[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 21:10:07
>>cmh89+Ty3
You use very uncommon (or I'd say, left-leaning) definition of "extremism". Basically, expressing opinion you disagree with, is extremism.
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48. strang+Qb6[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-18 00:05:30
>>awb+Jx
Many journalists are singularly obsessed with the eradication of 'harmful' or 'unsafe' accounts from Twitter. They are particularly concerned about doxxing when it happens to political figures they're sympathetic to or journalists. Technically all home addresses are public information, just as FAA data is. Yet people get rather nervous when their home address ends up on the internet and rightly so.

Their entire argument is about the prevention of the exact sort of thing that Musk alleges happened to a car carrying his child - real world harm from online activity. So why exactly are they upset about this change in policy that while clearly motivated by self-interest rather than any principle, technically aligns with some of their goals? It's because they want to be able to doxx people they think deserve it. Because when they doxx it's journalism, but when their enemies doxx it's stochastic terrorism.

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