zlacker

[parent] [thread] 43 comments
1. Alexan+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-12-15 17:47:59
Setting aside questions of whether there is copyright infringement going on, I think this is an unprecedented case in the history of automation replacing human labor.

Jobs have been automated since the industrial revolution, but this usually takes the form of someone inventing a widget that makes human labor unnecessary. From a worker's perspective, the automation is coming from "the outside". What's novel with AI models is that the workers' own work is used to create the thing that replaces them. It's one thing to be automated away, it's another to have your own work used against you like this, and I'm sure it feels extra-shitty as a result.

replies(5): >>wwwest+j9 >>andrep+9a >>Archel+7d >>MSFT_E+ge >>gotteb+ID
2. wwwest+j9[view] [source] 2022-12-15 18:32:55
>>Alexan+(OP)
Absolutely this -- and in many (maybe most cases), there was no consent for the use of the work in training the model, and quite possibly no notice or compensation at all.

That's a huge ethical issue whether or not it's explicitly addressed in copyright/ip law.

replies(3): >>api+Ce >>archon+Ze >>myrryr+if
3. andrep+9a[view] [source] 2022-12-15 18:37:54
>>Alexan+(OP)
I wouldn't say saying it came from the inside is unique to AI art. You very much need a welder's understanding of welding in order to be able to automate it for example.

I'd just say the scale is different. Old school automation just required one expert to guide the development of an automation. AI art requires the expertise of thousands.

4. Archel+7d[view] [source] 2022-12-15 18:51:08
>>Alexan+(OP)
> From a worker's perspective, the automation is coming from "the outside".

Not, if the worker is an engineer or similar. Some engineers built tools that improved building tools.

And this started even earlier than the industrial revolution. Think for example of Johannes Gutenberg. His real important invention was not the printing press (this already existed) and not even moveable types, but a process by which a printer could mold his own set of identical moveable types.

I see a certain analogy between what Gutenberg's invention meant for scribes then and what Stable Diffusion means for artists today.

Another thought: In engineering we do not have extremly long lasting copyright, but a lot shorter protection periods via patents. I have never understood why software has to be protected for such long copyright periods and not for much shorter patent-like periods. Perhaps we should look for something similar for AI and artists: An artist as copyright as usual for close reproductions, but after 20 years after publication it may be used without her or his consent for training AI models.

replies(1): >>Riogha+G41
5. MSFT_E+ge[view] [source] 2022-12-15 18:56:27
>>Alexan+(OP)
I don't know why we keep framing artists like they're textile workers or machinists.

The whole point of art is human expression. The idea that artists can be "automated away" is just sad and disgusting and the amount of people who want art but don't want to pay the artist is astounding.

Why are we so eager to rid ourselves of what makes us human to save a buck? This isn't innovation, its self destruction.

replies(6): >>hunter+6g >>Boiled+di >>lolind+Ck >>eikenb+mD >>soerxp+YO >>melago+Oi1
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6. api+Ce[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 18:57:49
>>wwwest+j9
I really think there's likely to be gigantic class action lawsuits in the near future, and I support them. People did not consent for their data and work to be used in this way. In many cases people have already demonstrated using custom tailored prompts that these models have been trained on copyrighted works that are not public domain.
replies(2): >>archon+8f >>Octopu+Pw
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7. archon+Ze[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 18:58:54
>>wwwest+j9
It is not a huge ethical issue. The artists have always been at risk of someone learning their style if they make their work available for public viewing.

We've just made "learning style" easier, so a thing that was always a risk is now happening.

replies(3): >>wwwest+Lp >>ilammy+vU >>noober+oo1
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8. archon+8f[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 18:59:34
>>api+Ce
Consent isn't required if they're making their work available for public viewing.
replies(1): >>gransh+kz
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9. myrryr+if[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 19:00:09
>>wwwest+j9
That is a hard fight to have, since it is the same for people. An artist will have watched some Disney movie, and that could influence their art in some small way. Does Disney have a right to take a small amount from every bit of art which they produce from then on? Obviously not.

The real answer is AI are not people, and it is ok to have different rules for them, and that is where the fight would need to be.

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10. hunter+6g[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 19:04:13
>>MSFT_E+ge
> The whole point of art is human expression.

For someone seeking sound/imagery/etc. resulting from human expression (i.e., art), it makes sense that it can't be automated away.

For someone seeking sound/imagery/etc. without caring whether it's the result of human expression (e.g., AI artifacts that aren't art), it can be automated away.

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11. Boiled+di[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 19:15:45
>>MSFT_E+ge
Because when people discuss "art" they are really discussing two things.

Static 2D images that usually serve a commercial purpose. Ex logos, clip art, game sprites, web page design and the like.

And the second is pure art whose purpose is more for the enjoyment of the creator or the viewer.

Business wants to fully automate the first case and must people view it has nothing to do with the essence of humanity. It's simply dollars for products - but it's also one of the very few ways that artists can actually have paying careers for their skills.

The second will still exist, although almost nobody in the world can pay bills off of it. And I wouldn't be shocked it ML models start encroaching there as well.

So a lot of what's being referred to is more like textile workers. And anyone who can type a few sentences can now make "art" significantly lowering barriers to entry. Maybe a designer comes and touches it up.

The short sighted part, is people thinking that this will somehow stay specific to Art and that their cherished field is immune.

Programming will soon follow. Any PM "soon enough" will be able to write text to generate a fully working app. And maybe a coder comes in to touch it up.

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12. lolind+Ck[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 19:24:50
>>MSFT_E+ge
Most art consumed today isn't about human expression, and it hasn't been for a very long time. Most art is produced for commercial reasons with the intent of making as much profit as possible.

Art-as-human-expression isn't going anywhere because it's intrinsically motivated. It's what people do because they love doing it. Just like people still do woodworking even though it's cheaper to buy a chair from Walmart, people will still paint and draw.

What is going to go away is design work for low-end advertising agencies or for publishers of cheap novels or any of the other dozens of jobs that were never bastions of human creativity to begin with.

replies(2): >>Phasma+pv >>nescio+dF
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13. wwwest+Lp[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 19:48:37
>>archon+Ze
Let's shift your risk of immediate assault and death up by a few orders of magnitude. I'm sure that you'll see that as "just" something that was always a risk, pretty much status quo, right right?

Oh, life & death is different? Don't be so sure; there's good reasons to believe that livelihood (not to mention social credit) and life are closely related -- and also, the fundamental point doesn't depend on the specific example: you can't point to an orders-of-magnitude change and then claim we're dealing with a situation that's qualitatively like it's "always" been.

"Easier" doesn't begin to honestly represent what's happened here: we've crossed a threshold where we have technology for production by automated imitation at scale. And where that tech works primarily because of imitation, the work of those imitated has been a crucial part of that. Where that work has a reasonable claim of ownership, those who own it deserve to be recognized & compensated.

replies(1): >>archon+dr
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14. archon+dr[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 19:54:43
>>wwwest+Lp
The 'reasonable claim of ownership' extends to restricting transmission, not use after transmission.

Artists are poets, and they're railing against Trurl's electronic bard.

[https://electricliterature.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Tr...]

replies(1): >>wwwest+fE
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15. Phasma+pv[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 20:13:16
>>lolind+Ck
I think fine artists and others who make and sell individual art pieces for a living will probably be fine, yeah. (Or at least won't be struggling much worse than they are already.)

There are a lot of working commercial artists in between the fine art world and the "cheap novels and low-end advertising agencies" you dismiss, and there's no reason to think AI art won't eat a lot of their employment.

replies(2): >>archon+3z >>lolind+TE
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16. Octopu+Pw[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 20:19:02
>>api+Ce
It's already explicitly legal to train AI using copyrighted data in many countries. You can ignore opt-outs too, especially if you're training AI for non-commercial purposes. Search up TDM exceptions.
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17. archon+3z[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 20:28:12
>>Phasma+pv
Of course it will. Their employment isn't sacred. They have a skill, we're teaching that skill to computers, and their skill will be worth less.

I don't pay someone to run calculations for me, either, also a difficult and sometimes creative process. I use a computer. And when the computer can't, then I either employ my creativity, or hire a creative.

replies(1): >>Phasma+VE1
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18. gransh+kz[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 20:29:43
>>archon+8f
For VIEWING. This is like blatantly taking your gpl licensed code and using it for commercial purposes
replies(1): >>archon+aL
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19. eikenb+mD[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 20:47:00
>>MSFT_E+ge
The idea that artists can be automated away is really just kind of dumb, not because people like AI created art and can get it cheap, but because it has no real impact on the "whole point" of the art... for the creation of the art. Pure art, as human expression, has no dependency on money. Anecdotally I very much enjoy painting and music (and coding) as art forms but have never sold a painting nor a song in my life. Just because someone won't pay you for something doesn't mean it has no value.

As far as money goes... long run artists will still make money fine as people will value the people generated (artisanal) works. Just as people like hand-made stuff today, even though you can get machine-made stuff way cheaper. You may not have the generic jobs of cranking out stuff for advertisements (and such) but you'll still have artists.

replies(1): >>krapp+0E
20. gotteb+ID[view] [source] 2022-12-15 20:48:55
>>Alexan+(OP)
We need a better way to reward the contributing artists making the diffusion models possible. Might we be able to come up with a royalty model, where the artist that made the original source content used in training the diffusion model, gets a fractional royalty based on how heavily it is used when generating the prompted art piece? We want to incentivize artists to feed their works, and original styles, into future AI models.
replies(1): >>Riogha+861
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21. krapp+0E[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 20:50:38
>>eikenb+mD
The conversation isn't about you or your hobby, it's about professional artists and illustrators, who are already being automated away by AI.
replies(2): >>astran+3F >>eikenb+mB4
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22. wwwest+fE[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 20:51:36
>>archon+dr
> The 'reasonable claim of ownership' extends to restricting transmission, not use after transmission.

It's not even clear you're correct by the apparent (if limited) support of your own argument. "Transmission" of some sort is certainly occurring when the work is given as input. It's probably even tenable to argue that a copy is created in the representation of the model.

You probably mean to argue something to the effect that dissemination by the model is the key threshold by which we'd recognize something like the current copyright law might fail to apply, the transformative nature of output being a key distinction. But some people have already shown that some outputs are much less transformative than others -- and even that's not the overall point, which is that this is a qualitative change much like those that gave birth to industrial-revolution copyright itself, and calls for a similar kind of renegotiation to protect the underlying ethics.

People should have a say in how the fruits of their labor are bargained for and used. Including into how machines and models that drive them are used. That's part of intentionally creating a society that's built for humans, including artists and poets.

replies(1): >>archon+FW
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23. lolind+TE[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 20:54:24
>>Phasma+pv
Just like AI can't replace programmers completely because most people are terrible at defining their own software requirements, AI won't replace middle-tier commercial artists because most people have no design sense.

Commercial art needs to be eye catching and on brand if it's going to be worth anything, and a random intern isn't going to be able to generate anything with an AI that matches the vision of stakeholders. Artists will still be needed in that middle zone to create things that are on brand, that match stakeholder expectations, and that stand out from every other AI generated piece. These artists will likely start using AI tools, but they're unlikely to be replaced completely any time soon.

That's why I only mentioned the bottom tier of commercial art as being in danger. The only jobs that can be replaced by AI with the technology that we're seeing right now are in the cases where it really doesn't matter exactly what the art looks like, there just has to be something.

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24. astran+3F[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 20:55:14
>>krapp+0E
Professional artists have no chance of being automated away. They need all the productivity tools they can get.

The ones at risk (and complaining the most) are semipro online artists who sell one image at a time, like fanart commissions.

replies(1): >>krapp+G91
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25. nescio+dF[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 20:55:43
>>lolind+Ck
It's an important distinction you make and hard to talk about without a vocabulary. The terms I've seen music historians use for this concept were:

- generic expression: commercial/pop/entertainment; audience makes demands on the art

- autonomous expression: artist's vision is paramount; art makes demands on the audience

Obviously these are idealized antipodes. The question about whether it is the art making the demands on the audience or the audience making demands on the art is especially insightful in my opinion. Given this rubric, I'd say AI-generated art must necessarily belong to "generic expression" simply because it's output has to meet fitness criteria.

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26. archon+aL[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 21:25:52
>>gransh+kz
A thing that can be viewed can be learned from.

I can't copy your GPL code. I might be able to write my own code that does the same thing.

I'm going to defend this statement in advance. A lot of software developers white knight more than they strictly have to; they claim that learning from GPL code unavoidably results in infringing reproduction of that code.

Courts, however, apply a test [1], in an attempt to determine the degree to which the idea is separable from the expression of that idea. Copyright protects particular expression, not idea, and in the case that the idea cannot be separated from the expression, the expression cannot be copyrighted. So either I'm able to produce a non-infringing expression of the idea, or the expression cannot be copyrighted, and the GPL license is redundant.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraction-Filtration-Compari...

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27. soerxp+YO[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 21:45:44
>>MSFT_E+ge
You're defining the word "art" in one sentence and then using a completely different definition in the next sentence. Where are these people who want art, as you've defined it, but don't want to pay? Most of the people you're referring to want visual representations of their fursonas, or D&D characters, or want marketing material for their product. They're not trying to get human expression.

In the sense that art is a 2D visual representation of something, or a marketing tool that evokes a biological response in the viewer, art is easy to automate away. This is no different than when the camera replaced portraitists. We've just invented a camera that shows us things that don't exist.

In the sense that art is human expression, nobody has even tried to automate that yet and I've seen no evidence that expressionary artists are threatened.

replies(1): >>noober+Bn1
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28. ilammy+vU[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 22:15:46
>>archon+Ze
This is like saying that continuously surveilling people when they are outside of their private property and live-reporting it to the internet is not a huge ethical issue. For you are always at risk of being seen when in public and the rest is merely exercising freedom of speech.

Something being currently legal and possible doesn’t mean being morally right.

Technology enables things and sometimes the change is qualitatively different.

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29. archon+FW[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 22:27:36
>>wwwest+fE
I wasn't speaking about dissemination by the model at all. It's possible for an AI to create an infringing work.

It's not possible for training an AI using data that was obtained legally to be copyright infringement. This is what I was talking about regarding transmission. Copyright provides a legal means for a rights holder to limit the creation of a copy of their image in order to be transmitted to me. If a rights holder has placed their image on the internet for me to view, then copyright does not provide them a means to restrict how I choose to consume that image.

The AI may or may not create outputs that can be considered derivative works, or contain characters protected by copyright.

You seem to be making an argument that we should be changing this somehow. I suppose I'll say "maybe". But it is apparent to me that many people don't know how intellectual property works.

replies(1): >>int_19+bk1
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30. Riogha+G41[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 23:18:14
>>Archel+7d
>Not, if the worker is an engineer or similar. Some engineers built tools that improved building tools

Those engineers consented to creating the new tools so that's different

replies(2): >>Archel+l91 >>int_19+pj1
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31. Riogha+861[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 23:26:19
>>gotteb+ID
This doesn't seem very helpful at all. First it seems impossibly difficult to execute and probably won't benefit the artists much.
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32. Archel+l91[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 23:46:55
>>Riogha+G41
That was not what was at issue in my comment. It referred to a sentence where the Parent was not talking about Stable Diffusion in particular, but about what he claimed was a general difference from the usual conditions since the industrial revolution. My comment merely referred to the fact that this is not generally true everywhere (in most specific cases, of course, it may very well be true). In this context, the real difference, however, with regard to Stable Diffusion is not the involuntary nature of the artists' "contributions", but the fact that the artists are not usually the developers of the AI software. In this respect, the Parent is right that for them all this comes from "the outside". It is just that I wanted to point out that this does not apply equally to all professional groups.
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33. krapp+G91[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-15 23:49:15
>>astran+3F
I follow plenty of artists on Elon's hellsite and professional artists of all stripes are upset about it. Jobs are already disappearing, being replaced entirely by AI and "prompt engineers" or people just using AI to copy someone's style for their portfolio. Granted, it isn't endemic yet, but the big Indiana Jones stone ball of progress is definitely rolling in that direction.
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34. melago+Oi1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 00:57:34
>>MSFT_E+ge
Is not programming a type of art? what is type of it is debatable theme in many years.
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35. int_19+pj1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:03:08
>>Riogha+G41
Some did, others did not. But those who did could still use the entire engineering corpus of knowledge they have studied towards their goal, even if they learned it from those who would not approve.
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36. int_19+bk1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:07:43
>>archon+FW
There's a separate question of whether the AI model, once trained on a copyrighted input, constitutes a derived work of that input. In cases where the model can, with the right prompt, produce a near-identical (as far as humans are concerned) image to the input, it's hard to see how it is not just a special case of compression; and, of course, compressed images are still protected by copyright.
replies(1): >>archon+Ra3
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37. noober+Bn1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:31:35
>>soerxp+YO
It's ironic seeing your earlier comment on chatgpt coding and then this. If anything is easier to automate, it's programming which can be rigorous and have rules while art really isn't, it's only "easy" for those who don't understand it, which is what the person is actually talking about.

You're in for a rude awakening when you get laid off and replaced with a bot that creates garbage code that is slow and buggy but works and so the boss gets to save on your salary. "But it's slow, redundant, looks like it was made by some who just copy and pasted endlessly from stackoverflow" but your boss won't care, he just needs to make a buck.

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38. noober+oo1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 01:36:32
>>archon+Ze
Make open source code open source always has the risk of someone copying it and distributing it in proprietary code. That doesn't make it right or ethical. Stealing an unlocked car is unethical. Raping someone who is weaker than you is unethical. Just because something isn't difficult doesn't make something ethical.
replies(1): >>archon+jw3
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39. Phasma+VE1[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 03:14:16
>>archon+3z
Okay, but that's a different argument from your original. First you said "only bad artists will lose their jobs," now it's "good artists will lose their jobs but I don't care."
replies(1): >>lolind+Rh3
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40. archon+Ra3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 15:03:06
>>int_19+bk1
You mean the AI model itself, the weights?

A derivative work is a creative expression based on another work that receives its own copyright protection. It's very unlikely that AI weights would be considered a creative expression, and would thus not be considered a derivative work. At this point, you probably can't copyright your AI weights.

An AI might create work that could be considered derivative if it were the creative output of a human, but it's not a human, and thus the outputs are unlikely to be considered derivative works, though they may be infringing.

replies(1): >>int_19+R95
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41. lolind+Rh3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 15:34:44
>>Phasma+VE1
It's a different person. I'm the person you first replied to, and I don't believe good artists will lose their jobs.

This was my reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34005604

I also agree that artist employment isn't sacred, but after extensive use of the generation tools I don't see them replacing anything but the lowest end of the industry, where they just need something to fill a space. The tools can give you something that matches a prompt, but they're only really good if you don't have strong opinions about details, which most middle tier customers will.

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42. archon+jw3[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 16:37:26
>>noober+oo1
This is kind of silly.

Both personal autonomy and private property are social constructs we agree are valuable. Stealing a car and raping a person are things we've identified as unacceptable and codified into law.

And in stark contrast, intellectual property is something we've identified as being valuable to extend limited protections to in order to incentivize creative and technological development. It is not a sacred right, it's a gambit.

It's us saying, "We identify that if we have no IP protection whatsoever, many people will have no incentive to create, and nobody will ever have an incentive to share. Therefore, we will create some protection in these specific ways in order to spur on creativity and development."

There's no (or very little) ethics to it. We've created a system not out of respect for people's connections to their creations, but in order to entice them to create so we can ultimately expropriate it for society as a whole. And that system affords protection in particular ways. Any usage that is permitted by the system is not only not unethical, it is the system working.

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43. eikenb+mB4[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-16 21:34:09
>>krapp+0E
That is not what the post I was responding to was about, it was about the art as human expression. Nothing was said about it as a profession and making money creating art makes zero difference as to the worth of the art.
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44. int_19+R95[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-17 00:55:38
>>archon+Ra3
Yes, I mean the weights.

If the original is a creative expression, then recording it using some different tech is still a creative expression. I don't see the qualitative difference between a bunch of numbers that constitutes weights in a neural net, and a bunch of numbers that constitute bytes in a compressed image file, if both can be used to recreate the original with minor deviations (like compression artifacts in the latter case).

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