zlacker

[parent] [thread] 53 comments
1. gorgoi+(OP)[view] [source] 2022-12-12 08:20:52
One thing I’m guilty of on this site is not upvoting enough. I vote down the banality and flag the pollution. Upvoting doesn’t seem to come as naturally — whenever I read an interesting response it’s the last thing on my mind. It’s a good thing really. Interesting stories and comments are the norm.

I wonder what the userDB says about any scarcity of upvoters? Are there many others like me? Am I not pulling my weight? Should I do it more?

replies(9): >>andy_p+E6 >>nobrai+bb >>sph+vc >>Cthulh+Gc >>lekevi+Lc >>solark+De >>verisi+bf >>t0bia_+Ag >>dang+yw
2. andy_p+E6[view] [source] 2022-12-12 09:22:53
>>gorgoi+(OP)
The UI for voting in general isn’t great and gives me anxiety on mobile so I almost never click it. With my sausage fingers it’d be good if the clickable area was bigger and up voting had some CTA…
replies(9): >>hutzli+A7 >>verste+08 >>moomin+9a >>mdp202+Pa >>jlokie+8b >>phh+xb >>asne11+Cf >>mirolj+Og >>flurdy+vo
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3. hutzli+A7[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 09:31:00
>>andy_p+E6
I agree to that, but I think this is not going to change as the outcry would be big, as people here like the minimalism. And I like minimalism, too, but I also seldom upvote on mobile, because it takes too much effort to hit the tiny spot and then "undown" again because I missed again. Custom CSS is possible though ..
replies(1): >>nigama+j8
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4. verste+08[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 09:34:59
>>andy_p+E6
The down arrow could be moved quite a lot further down from its current location, even next to a one-line comment. I can't see who could complain about the arrows also being bigger. Even on desktop I have to double-check I clicked correctly.
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5. nigama+j8[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 09:37:01
>>hutzli+A7
It's more than possible to increase the sizes and while we're at it scale that to the size of the screen. It will take some effort but it will save the community and add to many upvotes.
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6. moomin+9a[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 09:56:41
>>andy_p+E6
Grief, the mobile UI is awful. I’ve seen auto-playing videos with more clickable close buttons.
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7. mdp202+Pa[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 10:03:55
>>andy_p+E6
You could inject CSS with a modified ".votearrow".
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8. jlokie+8b[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 10:06:40
>>andy_p+E6
- The header to the right of the vote buttons shows "unvote" or 'undown" after voting. So you can at least see if you fat-fingered someone down in error and fix the mistake.

- On mobile, Android, I use Materialistic to read HN. The UI is much better than the web version, and voting uses a standard mobile UI element (or swipe, but I don't use that). You can't downvote in Materialistic, only upvote, so if you're worried about accidental downvoting that goes away.

9. nobrai+bb[view] [source] 2022-12-12 10:07:18
>>gorgoi+(OP)
I am the opposite. I vote up easily, but think a hundred times before downvoting. Downvoting feels like censorship to me.
replies(10): >>FpUser+Dd >>UberFl+pg >>iamben+9i >>ChrisM+Uj >>xxs+sm >>xienze+Om >>zimbat+lo >>Follow+ku >>Follow+7v >>kibwen+dv
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10. phh+xb[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 10:09:44
>>andy_p+E6
FWIW, on mobile, I use https://f-droid.org/en/packages/io.github.hidroh.materialist... rather than the website, so I don't have that issue.
replies(1): >>t0bia_+bh
11. sph+vc[view] [source] 2022-12-12 10:18:44
>>gorgoi+(OP)
Upvoting is more effort than scrolling. I downvote bad or trollish takes, I upvote stuff I strongly agree with or generally great, effortful comments (sometimes even when I disagree! But sadly I'm not humble enough to do that often). I read the vast majority without upvoting.
12. Cthulh+Gc[view] [source] 2022-12-12 10:20:42
>>gorgoi+(OP)
I think that's a very common issue, not just with upvote based comment sections but reviews in general; people write reviews when they have something to complain about, which means that a lot of reviews are just bad. But at some point, app manufacturers and webshops started to prompt people to please leave a review if they like the app as well.
13. lekevi+Lc[view] [source] 2022-12-12 10:21:04
>>gorgoi+(OP)
HN already has a “reply” link below the comment. Adding “upvote” would solve both the timing (noticing upvote after reading the comment) and usability (solves touch target size on mobile).
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14. FpUser+Dd[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 10:28:05
>>nobrai+bb
I never downvote at all. It reminds me for some reasons faceless mob with the clubs. But I have to admit that I do not upvote enough. Definitely not all the deserving posts.
replies(1): >>solark+lf
15. solark+De[view] [source] 2022-12-12 10:35:41
>>gorgoi+(OP)
I upvote a lot, wherever possible. Posting on the internet mostly feels like screaming into a void to me, so I'm always happy to know someone has read and even appreciates what I posted - which is why I try to do the same thing for others.
replies(1): >>t0bia_+th
16. verisi+bf[view] [source] 2022-12-12 10:39:40
>>gorgoi+(OP)
If you downvote, I think that should come with an explanation of your downvote.

There may be genuine reasons for downvoting, errors in what is presented, etc. Fair enough.

But if you downvote because you don't like something, all you are doing is attempting to create an echo chamber of views and opinions you already believe. Is that what you want? If so, you are now in a war for control of the echo chamber you want to see with others of like mind - its a race to the bottom.

In reverse, if you value alternative, unusual and/or creative ideas, perhaps this is something that should consider giving an upvote to, even if you disagree with it.

That's my opinion anyway. And I try to do as I suggest.

replies(1): >>drunkp+5o
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17. solark+lf[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 10:40:49
>>FpUser+Dd
I rarely downvote here, but that's because the quality is already high. A part of keeping it this way is vigorously downvoting unrelated/lazy/overly emotional comments, so maybe a faceless mob with clubs is actually what it needs :-)

Only unproductive comments, of course. Different opinions should be welcome.

replies(1): >>FpUser+2j
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18. asne11+Cf[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 10:42:45
>>andy_p+E6
There are plenty of simpler solutions:

- zoom into the button, then click

- override the css yourself, e.g,: using your one of the many userstyles extensions or browser developer tools

- inject custom JavaScript using GreaseMonkey or Tampermonkey

- use a third party HN client. As you would imagine, there's a sea of those - one of them must be halfways decent :-D

- purchase a new device with better touch precision. Pixel 3/6 with display scaled down handles the problem of adjacent links smaller than a fingertip exceptionally well

- If able, try to reduce the finger sausages. Otherwise, use a stylus.

Why should YC change it for everyone to make it more attractive on your device?

replies(1): >>breaki+Qg
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19. UberFl+pg[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 10:48:00
>>nobrai+bb
That's good because I always wonder about the dynamic of the establishment "old guard" voting down everything they don't agree with.
replies(1): >>Udo+fq
20. t0bia_+Ag[view] [source] 2022-12-12 10:49:57
>>gorgoi+(OP)
I don't use up/downvote at all. It kills "organic" conversations and shape it unnaturally.

It also makes me biased to downvoted posts.

I would completely disable voting system in any kind of conversations.

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21. mirolj+Og[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 10:51:36
>>andy_p+E6
It's not only about fat fingers.

I may be upvoting more if the up/down links were below the comment. Usually I don't vote until I read the complete comment, and then, scrolling back up just to vote and then back to continue reading feels tedious. But maybe that's the whole point.

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22. breaki+Qg[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 10:51:52
>>asne11+Cf
Those solutions are simpler to you than simply not voting?
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23. t0bia_+bh[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 10:55:16
>>phh+xb
I prefer Glider https://f-droid.org/packages/nl.viter.glider/

But I still end up in Telegram because of thumbnails.

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24. t0bia_+th[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 10:58:11
>>solark+De
Isn't actual response in words more useful to you?

Like this question? Otherwise I would downvote. Which I never do.

replies(1): >>matkon+xk
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25. iamben+9i[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 11:04:16
>>nobrai+bb
Yes, I'm very much the same.

I'm happy to (attempt to! re-)upvote comments that have been downvoted, as long as they're actually thoughtful and contribute to the argument/conversation, and obviously (and often!) I'll upvote a well thought through comment.

I seem to go through periods where I downvote more often, but almost without exception it's just downvoting pointless/sarcastic/unpleasant comments. Gotta say though - for a 10+ year old community, I remain amazed that the discourse is usually civil, largely intelligent and still(!) remains spam free.

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26. FpUser+2j[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 11:13:27
>>solark+lf
>"so maybe a faceless mob with clubs is actually what it needs :-)"

I think it needs moderators doing their jobs with appropriate tools.

replies(1): >>sokolo+3l
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27. ChrisM+Uj[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 11:21:44
>>nobrai+bb
Same here. I will also often vouch new comments; even if I don't agree with them. The bar is whether or not they are coming from a respectful and contribute to the conversation.
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28. matkon+xk[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 11:27:40
>>t0bia_+th
> Isn't actual response in words more useful to you?

Yes, but if it has actual content. +1 comments are inferior to upvotes.

replies(1): >>t0bia_+gs
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29. sokolo+3l[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 11:33:18
>>FpUser+2j
What if those appropriate tools include upvote/downvote/flag/vouch by community members?
replies(1): >>FpUser+jv
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30. xxs+sm[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 11:44:47
>>nobrai+bb
>Downvoting feels like censorship to me.

because it works that way here

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31. xienze+Om[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 11:47:09
>>nobrai+bb
I wonder why this site -- or any site with up/downvoting, really -- doesn't implement a "must comment to downvote" policy. Far too often downvoting is just the "I disagree and think you suck" button[0]. Make someone elaborate on _why_ they disagree or _why_ the original poster is wrong before allowing a downvote.

0: in particular, on HN the downvote button also seems to serve the purpose of "I don't think other people should see what you have to say" button due to HN's passive-aggressive greying out of downvoted comments.

replies(4): >>detaro+5n >>Udo+Qo >>jwarde+Vq >>acdha+Dv
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32. detaro+5n[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 11:49:49
>>xienze+Om
That's a surefire way to give more attention to bad posts and cause flamewars that spiral out of control.
replies(1): >>xienze+Wr
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33. drunkp+5o[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 11:58:38
>>verisi+bf
I have to strongly disagree with you. In my opinion a policy like this would err on valuing form over content, when content matters a great deal. Downvotes (and upvotes) can be a signal for content as well as form.

For example, an articulate, well-reasoned, passionate argument for why PHP is the best get shit done language? Sure, I can upvote that even if I firmly disagree.

But an articulate, well-reasoned, passionate argument for vi being superior to emacs? I can’t downvote fast enough, but only because we cannot burn the heretic in these enlightened times.

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34. zimbat+lo[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:01:00
>>nobrai+bb
What we're looking for are high signal/noise ration posts to expand the conversation into new areas that are interesting.

If the ratio is too low (eg: spam, shallow content, same old tired point), it's not an issue to downvote IMO. That helps with the current post and also encourages good behaviour in the future.

This is not the same as downvoting with a point that you personally disagree with. This is censorship and toxic to the community.

replies(1): >>Follow+zu
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35. flurdy+vo[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:01:49
>>andy_p+E6
Slashdot moderation for the win! Except it didn't...
replies(1): >>Udo+pp
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36. Udo+Qo[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:04:48
>>xienze+Om
People have differing opinions on downvoting. The majority seems to think that disagreement is enough. Personally, I'm in the same camp as you: a comment has to actively detract from the conversation to get my downvote. I don't see HN changing in that regard though.

Requiring a comment is probably a bit much, but I do think two separate downvote buttons would be helpful to the commenter, even if only they could see this feedback. Maybe one link labeled with "disagree" and one with "low quality" or something. UI-wise this would have the added benefit of letting new users know that HN officially expects them to consider both options.

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37. Udo+pp[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:09:06
>>flurdy+vo
Slashdot didn't win for several reasons, but the voting system in general had the problem of only giving you voting rights sporadically (I think it may have been coupled to recently earned Karma or something). The effect was that inevitably when you wanted to vote you couldn't - and vice versa. Also, the UI was a dropdown box, which made it tedious to vote. But I do think being able to state the reason was a good idea. It had the added benefit of letting the voter know what the voting considerations should be in the first place.
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38. Udo+fq[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:14:51
>>UberFl+pg
Whoever the "old guard" is, they don't have special downvoting powers, do they? In the end, it's a numbers game. As far as I can tell, every user gets exactly one vote, no matter how influential. If "they" really hate you, or if enough normal users flag you, HN has other ways of letting you know, like shadow banning/auto-deading or flagging your account so your comments immediately fall to the bottom of the page no matter how many upvotes they receive. As long as you don't see either effect, you're probably doing okay here.
replies(1): >>aeyes+2u
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39. jwarde+Vq[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:20:44
>>xienze+Om
It’s a great idea. And it doesn’t have to be a comment. It just needs to be a reason. It could be a tag, possibly corresponding to a specific guideline on the site. #flamebate, #tangent, etc.
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40. xienze+Wr[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:29:56
>>detaro+5n
I think you’re making the flawed assumption that no one would ever downvote something that might be well-intentioned, well-argued, but unpopular (for example, literally anything about Covid that goes against popular opinion).
replies(1): >>detaro+ds
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41. detaro+ds[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:32:14
>>xienze+Wr
No, I'm not assuming that. You can't have "must comment to downvote" just for those though, and having it for all is bad for the given reasons.
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42. t0bia_+gs[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:32:26
>>matkon+xk
Right, what content voting has? None. That's why it is irrelevant for me.
replies(1): >>dwight+Tu
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43. aeyes+2u[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:49:16
>>Udo+fq
Can you even downvote on new accounts?
replies(1): >>Udo+iu
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44. Udo+iu[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:51:14
>>aeyes+2u
You need to be above a certain karma threshold, but it's not high (500 or so).
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45. Follow+ku[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:51:24
>>nobrai+bb
> Downvoting feels like censorship to me.

It is. As is upvoting, since it makes the unvoted and down voted harder to see.

I do not understand why people think this "mob rule" of up and down voting will end up with the "best" things being selected. It will only be the most common/neutral things being brought to our attention.

Unpopular ideas are not wrong, just unpopular. Just ask Copernicus.

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46. Follow+zu[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:53:35
>>zimbat+lo
> This is not the same as downvoting with a point that you personally disagree with. This is censorship and toxic to the community.

But this is what CONSTANTLY happens here. It is the norm everywhere there is likes/dislikes. It is inverse authoritarianism.

replies(1): >>zimbat+061
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47. dwight+Tu[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:55:29
>>t0bia_+gs
It moved the comment you were reading up the list making it more likely you see it (or down/less)… unless you read all the comments on HN. (Or maybe read from the bottom up?)
replies(1): >>t0bia_+Vx
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48. Follow+7v[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:57:10
>>nobrai+bb
There are going to be so many random up and down votes in this thread... :)
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49. kibwen+dv[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:57:59
>>nobrai+bb
Upvoting is just as censoring as downvoting is, which is to say, it's not censorship at all. "Free speech" does not mean that all speech is equally valuable. Some speech is worthless noise, and recognizing that is the only way to have useful discourse in an open forum.
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50. FpUser+jv[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 12:58:57
>>sokolo+3l
I do not believe those "tools" to be appropriate. Others can of course feel different but I do not care. There is no need to "win" the argument.
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51. acdha+Dv[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 13:01:37
>>xienze+Om
That idea could work when it’s something relatively mild, and not attached to a larger media campaign – classic HN fare like this thread may have disagreements but all of the participants generally want to be here, are legitimately interested in the topic, and usually have some level of expertise and interest in being correct.

I don’t think it would be viable in the threads which touch on larger societal debates. A great example would be election topics after Trump started lying about election fraud and that message became something media outlets started pushing to millions of people on topics many people here are interested in like election systems or forensic analysis. That leads to waves of people repeating long-debunked claims ad nauseam and because they aren’t here to learn or even debate rationally, there’s not much point in filling up the thread with 200 comments saying “This is not true. See http…” over and over, and the volume means that the kind of people we’d most want to have involved in such a thread are going to get tired of it and move on.

One natural response is to say “no politics” but that’s really not possible given the involvement of IT in almost everything now and the areas where legislation is being proposed. The approach of having skilled people like dang moderate threads works well but it’s very expensive, so I think the community downvoting low-value posts is probably a necessary evil. It’d be tempting to have some way to say that someone isn’t contributing to a thread to boot them out but that seems hard to do without being too slow to matter or prone to brigading. Labeling might be worth trying, as much as a social cue to the voter as new information for the moderators.

52. dang+yw[view] [source] 2022-12-12 13:08:45
>>gorgoi+(OP)
(We detached this subthread from its original parent, which was https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33950747.)
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53. t0bia_+Vx[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 13:19:30
>>dwight+Tu
Yes, and I don't like it much. More visible content is even more visible in time. But not necessary more relevant. Maybe more liked, but how much only because "you don't want to sroll more"?

However "votes" for commenting suggested links makes more sense for me. It naturally expose topics that users willing to discuss and care about.

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54. zimbat+061[view] [source] [discussion] 2022-12-12 16:21:19
>>Follow+zu
It would be interesting to ask users to classify their up/downvotes as opinion vs signal/noise ratio. Maybe that's the next evolution of leaderboard systems like HN/reddit?
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